119: Unlocking Learning Potential: A Deep Dive into Social Annotation with Joe Ferraro from Hypothes.is

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Holly Owens: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another amazing episode of Ed up at Tech.

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DaNadia Johnson: My name is Holly Owens, and my name is Nadia Johnson, and we're your host.

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Holly Owens: And we're super excited because we're starting off Season 4 today. And we have an amazing, amazing guest with us. Somebody that you know, we're just talking about a little history with this Ed tech company. And I'm excited to introduce you. So we have, Joe Ferro. He is the vice president of revenue at hypothesis, Joe.

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Holly Owens: hypothesis, and yourself.

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Holly Owens: But before we jump into everything, hypothesis, hypothesis, let's learn a little bit about you. So tell us about your journey into this Ed tech space, your vice President revenue. How'd you get here?

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Joe Ferraro: Yeah. Yeah. I'm still trying to figure that out, honestly. But no, I've been in I've been in the education space about 15 years now, and education was always something that was super important to me. I was a first generation college student my dad actually didn't even finish high school. So it was a really big deal for me to go to school and

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Joe Ferraro: I graduated coming into the workplace. I wanted an opportunity to pay a forward. So actually, I worked on the other side of the desk for about 5 years I'm in the Boston area. So I worked for a couple of colleges in the Boston area in admissions and enrollment and recruitment. And that really led me into Ed Tech, because I saw that we were using a lot of different tools to recruit students. This was again 15 years ago. So students were online. And it was

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Joe Ferraro: probably Myspace was tick tock 15 years ago. So that's where we were doing a lot of recruitment. And I've been able to work at some pretty cool organizations. I mean, I worked with the company that launched the Virtual College Fair company that focused on virtual international student recruitment and also company that really

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Joe Ferraro: pioneered virtual science labs before I landed here at hypothesis. And it's just been really exciting to see just how tech is replacing so many of the things that we almost took for granted in the traditional classroom, and when I joined hypothesis it was coming off the pandemic where so many schools were saying. It was so challenging to connect with students that are either remote or hadn't been in the classroom, and so long they didn't know how to connect with each other with their faculty, or even with the course material. So it's been an interesting.

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Joe Ferraro: almost 2 years now since I joined.

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Holly Owens: I like your story, and how you're all involved in education. You're you're in a

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Holly Owens: space among amongst educators, definitely with our audience, and Nadia myself as well and higher. Ed, too. It's just a great. It is a great experience going through that, and then getting to a point where you're, you know, at the top of like an Ed tech company, and can really take all that experience. And just you know, like you said, turn around and give back.

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Joe Ferraro: Yeah, it's it's it's exciting.

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DaNadia Johnson: Yeah.

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DaNadia Johnson: definitely. I think II always say, like a lot of my experience has prepared me for where I'm at now. So I, yeah, II think our story just helps to shape like what we're able to, what kind of impact we're able to bring in this space. So who

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Joe Ferraro: who along the way inspired you on this journey? As you were moving into the space with hypothesis? You know I have to say more than anything. It was the students themselves. So I mentioned, I worked in international student recruitment. So I actually worked for a company that helps students from China actually study here in the Us. On the high school side. So they were looking for home. Stay, experience really changing everything that they.

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Joe Ferraro: and ever thought that they would be doing and moving to the other side of the world to better their education. And it made me realize that I think here in the States especially, we might take that for granted. And so I think the students have always been a big inspiration for me cause. How many jobs can you work? And I mean, let's face it. I was a sales guy for a long time, and now I manage a lot of sales folks. And how many times can you say you sell something that's actually gonna make an impact on somebody for the rest of their life? So I think that's number one for me.

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Joe Ferraro: Second, are just the faculty and teachers depending on where they are at, whether it's K 12 or higher. Ed, just to do a lot of work. It's not just grading papers and being in class, you're making connections with so many students. And so I think those

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Joe Ferraro: 2 groups are my biggest inspirations for doing what I do. I mean professionally. I've just been so lucky to work with so many incredible people dan our CEO hypothesis. I mean, this is a project that he's been working on, and it started as a nonprofit. I'm sure we'll get into it more. But he's been working in the web since you know the mid nineties. He actually

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Joe Ferraro: he doesn't like to admit it. But he kind of invented booking your plane tickets on the Internet. The first commercial plane ticket ran through a server in his house in midnight. You wanna talk about tech. He's been around for a while, and and it's just been great. I've been so lucky to have so many incredible mentors like that in my career.

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DaNadia Johnson: That's awesome. I think. What spoke. The thing is like, I think you said something along the lines of like you

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DaNadia Johnson: selling, selling a product or dealing with something that you are like are behind, and that's kind of how I operate like I won't. I mean, I'm not. I don't come from a sales standpoint, but I come from a learning design standpoint, and I will never work on any type of curriculum, product or educational resource that I wouldn't use, and that I don't, you know, fully support and stand behind. So I think that's awesome.

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Joe Ferraro: Yeah. And that's, I think that's true of a lot of educators. I don't know lot of products out there, and it's it's a lot easier you believe in it to help help other people use it and get them to adapt and learn from it.

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Holly Owens: Yeah. And we both know it's so. It's so interesting to watch the growth of big tech companies like yours and and others, and how it evolves. And you see, like companies like yourself that are in tune with what the the end user needs or what the learner needs. And

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Holly Owens: and it's I'm not gonna get too much. And now I'm let you explain hypothesis in a minute. But I just love. I love, I love watching the growth and evolution, especially this podcast now and also meaning the Ed tech. You know, when I started as an educator.

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Holly Owens: I was in my twenties, and the principal was like, you're gonna be the clicker person in the smartboard person. You're gonna train people. So watching the evolution of this, this sector over the years is been something that's really exciting.

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Holly Owens: And I'm really looking forward to seeing what's going to happen in the future.

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Holly Owens: But we want to know about hypothesis. So anybody for anybody in our audience who has never heard of it. Can you give us an overview? What products and services you offer? What does it do you know? How does it help in higher Ed education. Everybody overall. Because I know there's a little thing you can do annotations like with Google and and all kinds of stuff.

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Joe Ferraro: Yeah. So hypothesis, we're a social annotation tool. And if you're not familiar with the term, that's okay. I wasn't either. When I started working here. So social annotation. It's it's a digital tool. It allows multiple users to add comments, notes or explanations directly onto digital documents. So think web pages. Think Pdfs think other electronic text.

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And it's sort of similar to writing in the margins of the physical book, which is something I used to do a lot when I was a student. Take your notes in the margins of the page. But now it's not online, it can really be shared with others.

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Joe Ferraro: And so it really enables students, educators, and to your point, really, any group of users to discuss and analyze and collaborate on that on the same document in real time. And I think that can enhance the learning and reading experience.

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Joe Ferraro: But if you think about it, we have so many different types of content that are served up to us every day whether it's news articles that you're reading. It's stuff that comes to your email. It's things you see on TV. The only way you can have a conversation about it with somebody in real time is if you're sitting there looking at it together. Wise, you're sending it in a text message. You're emailing it to someone. You're posting it on slack or

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Holly Owens: Internet space or email space, right? And then you have no idea what your weird uncle's gonna have to say about what you have to say. So it's

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Joe Ferraro: making sure everybody's got that same perspective on the same thing, and especially in academic use. I think that's super important. Because learning management system is where everything is supposed to live right. It connects to your ebooks, it connects to your grades. It connects to any video assignments. You know, any type of Ed tech that you talk to probably connects to an Lms. But those things don't actually interconnect with each other, and you always have to go back to the discussion board

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Joe Ferraro: and discussion boards are pretty boring. Everybody's always agreeing. Everybody's always saying that was a good idea. But it's typically because they didn't actually do the reading, because it's you click over here. You have to click back. We make it a lot easier for students to do that all in one place.

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Joe Ferraro: But we also do have our chrome extension, which is a free version, we call it in the wild internally, and you can really use that to annotate the web anywhere. So we've got folks that have created book clubs and they discuss ebooks. We see a lot of researchers and fact checkers that are gonna use it. We cover some of the biggest pre print archives in the world for researchers so that they can share different bits of information.

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Joe Ferraro: And what we've seen is we've got about 2.5 million users total. And we've seen over 60 million annotations in the last few years. So it's it's spreading pretty quickly.

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Joe Ferraro: Get people excited about looking at the documents and collaborating together.

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DaNadia Johnson: II love that. II just took a course. I'm in my final semester now of graduate school, and I just took a course in collaborative learning. And I I'm like now, after taking that course, I'm up. I'm like obsessed with anything that's like

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DaNadia Johnson: allows people to collaborate and learn from each other in this like a tech space. So I absolutely love that absolutely love that.

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DaNadia Johnson: What what would you say is one thing that you do at a hypothesis that you would consider unique.

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Joe Ferraro: So I think the number one thing is just the amount of different surfaces that we can connect to. So we connect with etexts through some of the biggest publishers in the world. We connect with the library resources. I mean, institutions, spend a lot of money to get a lot of resources for students and technology should make it easier for them to find it, instead of

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Joe Ferraro: making it harder for them to connect with it and dealing with copyright clearance. And all these things. So we do a lot of the heavy lifting for folks there. But I think what we see is something that we do that

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Joe Ferraro: really nobody else does in the space right now is, get students to be reading more actively and making it more visible. I read a study from one of the big textbook publishers last Semester, where, for every 100 pages of readings that are assigned, only 37 pages are actually read. So I mean, that means that's probably me with a physical book to let's be honest. But discussion boards, and you can't wing it as much as you could 100 years ago.

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Joe Ferraro: And so if you're only reading a third of what you're supposed to. how are you gonna absorb the 100% of what you need?

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Joe Ferraro: I mean, we're coming off a few years where, you know, test scores are lower than they've been in my adult life.

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Joe Ferraro: Enrollment is dropping in schools because people aren't even really deciding the education valuable. I mean, if people don't even think they need to read

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Joe Ferraro: to get a good grade, then how are they gonna progress and do? Well later on. This I think this is especially true. For first year students that have come off a pretty wild couple of years as they're in their freshman

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Joe Ferraro: year in universities.

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Joe Ferraro: So what we try to do is build a community of students where they can get to know each other in the margins of the page.

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Joe Ferraro: and what I've seen is they're always there's always the students in the back row that are shy, and they're afraid to raise their hand suddenly. The playing field is level because they see everybody has the same questions as they do.

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Joe Ferraro: They're not the only one who doesn't understand something, and it really does build a sense of community in the classroom that I can say our faculty right about semester after semester.

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DaNadia Johnson: That's literally what I was. Gonna say, like when you were speaking, I was thinking community. And I think that's like something that that's a big part of learning that a lot of people don't think about. They think about that like that instructor and and student relationship. But they don't think about also just the community that you build when you are learning and how you are learning from each other. So that's absolutely awesome.

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Holly Owens: Yeah, I and I agree with you, Nadia, too. That is, it is amazing. And it's very difficult in the digital age to bring together people and promote those higher order thinking skills or those critical thinking skills. And I think that's something that hypothesis is doing with this tool is really bringing us back to the basics. And what we need to know need to read. You need to know how to write. You need to like

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Holly Owens: those things aren't going away, no matter how digital or AI we get, you're still gonna have to, you know, revise AI, and you're still gonna have to know how to write certain things that you are not gonna be able to ask. Chat gpt about. Sorry, my to my friend Jason. Who is it? An AI Guru? But you're still gonna have to know those things. And I really feel like tools like this are making that possible.

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But also you're pushing things ahead at the same time.

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Joe Ferraro: Yeah, I mean, we. We had some research with the University of Texas at Austin. So this was it was an introductory physics course, and so I heard the term weed out course a few times as we were started to put all this information together. Would you believe that you know Top ranked University

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Joe Ferraro: before hypothesis? The average student in this course was only interacting with their textbook 7 times over the course of a semester.

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Joe Ferraro: And so when they actually roll hypothesis into the course, what they saw with students were interacting with the text somewhere between 35 and 45 times over the course of the semester. So that's like a 5 x increase in interaction. And it is building that community. But it's also the basics, you know. You go into physics. You think I know what I need to know, but there's so much that you don't know.

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Joe Ferraro: and you don't realize it until you start to really interact with your peers, especially if you're taking a hybrid class or an online course.

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Holly Owens: Yeah, absolutely. So like, when it comes to thinking about. You know the the space. And like, I know lots of people they have.

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Holly Owens: And I'm gonna ask a different type of question here. Cause I know lots of people concerns about like data, privacy and security, and I know hypothesis, open source. So

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Holly Owens: you know what kind of steps can. Just from your perspective, the education institutions can take to kind of safeguard that student data and also protect the privacy while they're using the technology cause. That's probably one of the first questions. If you go into some sort of Ed tech demo you get asked is about the How do? How is our data use? Where is it stored? Where is it? Where does it go? So what are some of the steps or information you can provide about hypothesis, and how you all protect.

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Joe Ferraro: That's that's a great question. And you're right. Our history is an open source tool and hypothesis. Chrome extension is exactly that. But the hypothesis for Lms is actually built off the open source tool. So it is not open source. Student data is protected. We're connected to the Lms via Lti. 1.3, and actually, probably by this time next month will be the first annotation tool on the market that sought to compliant

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Joe Ferraro: security accessibility are 2 of our number one, our top 2 priorities here. And so we wanna make sure that student data is not just secure. But it's enterprise, great security. Because

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Joe Ferraro: Ferpa is a real thing. I've clicked in the space long enough to know that simple mistake can be a very expensive one, but especially for the institutions themselves. They're trusting us with the student data. So we pass it through. And it's sort of the Lms servers, not on the hypothesis servers. So they have ultimate control data at the end of the day.

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Holly Owens: Excellent! I love hearing that, and I love hearing you say that that is a priority, and also the we love the word accessibility here. We're really big on that. And we do a lot of mean we do a lot of things, talk about a lot of different things around and accessibility. We had a few people in the show so

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Holly Owens: really glad to hear that that's a top priority for your company as well.

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Holly Owens: So alright. We went through data and privacy. We talked about hypothesis. You gave us some information about some things that Uta is doing, which which is fantastic. So

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Holly Owens: you said that one of the things you do is you integrate with the the learning management system. So I'm assuming it's like all major Lms systems like canvas blackboard.

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Joe Ferraro: Sorry the all the names have changed so much.

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Holly Owens: So like when you're integrating with the Lms. And you're getting professors up to speed with different things. What sort of like resources and trainings or opportunities do you have for instructors, or faculty, or students like? Where can they go to like find support with hypothesis? I kind of just jumped into it. Because we're, we're in a tech. Podcast. So we just, we know what to do right. But if people are looking to get get up to speed on this, where can they go?

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Joe Ferraro: Yeah. So we have a few different resources. First for our customers. You do have a dedicated account manager and customer success manager. So Kristy, our lead customer success manager. She's she's an instructional designer by trade. She worked at Rutgers part of a decade, and so she's really she's my guru when it comes to. How do we use this? And how do we teach other folks to use it? So we do offer a variety of different types of resources

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Joe Ferraro: for our customers. First, we do each week we do what we call partner workshops for a different Lms, how to use it in canvas, blackboard, moodle, Sakai. And I'm sure there's somebody that are missing there to your point. We also do custom workshops for our subscribers to sort of level up once you get past the 101 and think about how to use tagging and social annotation, multi modal annotation. So

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Joe Ferraro: so we just rolled out video annotation last semester. So you can now annotate the transcript of any Youtube video. So let's say, there was a Youtube version of this podcast we'd have to transcript along the side. I could actually make comments and all the dumb stuff. I said in the time code and so then also, we've got a section called our assignment resources. So we've had over.

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Joe Ferraro: Probably 15,000 instructors use the tool, and we actually crowdsource. What are your best performing assignments? And we share those by disciplines. So that's another way folks can come on and see what we call our starter assignments.

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Joe Ferraro: And then last year we rolled out. We call hypothesis Academy, and this has been a game changer for our customers. So it's a 2 week asynchronous course Christy who I just mentioned. She runs it, and our first one is hypothesis, 101 so teaches you, what is social annotation? How do you use it? How do you grade it? How do you help students who don't understand it. And then, just

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Joe Ferraro: for some reason, AI was a real big deal in education last year. So we rolled out another. How do you use social annotation to counteract your students using chat Gp digit their homework. And so it's been pretty well received. We've had over 500 instructors that have actually gotten the option in the last year. And so

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Holly Owens: it's really exciting. I mean, it's hard to get 500 people to do anything, but I know you can get 500 people to register. But you can't get 500 people show up. You're doing something right? You gotta share your marketing secrets or something with us.

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Joe Ferraro: Yeah, II think Christy is the secret weapon there. So she's she does a really great job, really getting these folks up and running and teaching them, and in last semester I think we ran something like 150 workshops for institutions as well. So we're constantly teaching folks how to use it. And then what we see is we get our champions on campus that are suddenly

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Joe Ferraro: becoming the hypothesis educator on campus, and they're teaching other folks. And so it really helps us drive usage and adoption across the campus as well.

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DaNadia Johnson: That's awesome. I really love that idea of like how to kind of replace this idea of like students doing homework with AI in in using this platform, I really, I really love that.

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DaNadia Johnson: Okay, so thanks for sharing everything about hypothesis that was so interesting to learn more about hypothesis. Did we miss anything? Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you want to share about hypothesis or anything that you got in the works that's coming up a hypothesis

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Joe Ferraro: you share with the audience. Yeah. So II think we talk a lot about educational institutions. But I think at tech is actually growing a lot more beyond that, especially when you think about corporate learning and development. And what I'm seeing is that I must fell over the other day when I saw Cahoot in an Amazon meeting, I was like.

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Holly Owens: like, When did this happen.

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Joe Ferraro: Yeah, yeah, II know like, canvas. D 2 l. Those folks. They're they're going hard after the corporate space. And there are a lot of people that are trying to build tools and catch up on Lti, which seems

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Joe Ferraro: crazy to me since that's been all I've known for so long in this space, and our tool allows for collaboration anywhere on the web to point. So my teams internally are using it for all kinds of things like

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Joe Ferraro: my sales team. When we're training new reps, they're actually using annotations on the website and our competitors website to annotate the pages and understand what the differences are and really show the mastery. Like our marketing team. They're running updates throughout the day. They're using annotations to show where the copy needs to be dropped in. And even our engineering team uses it to review code snippets so that they can say, I don't think this looks right without breaking any code. So I think that that's a place we're super excited to

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Joe Ferraro: dive into a bit more we did, partner with Atlasian and launch a confluence integration last year, and seen some pretty cool work there that's coming through. But I'm also just excited about some of the things we're doing in general. So we launched video annotations last year we connect with the text and library resources. Next up is image annotations. So think about diagrams, figures, all the stuff that we

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Joe Ferraro: haven't been able to do just yet, and being able to talk about what you see, I just met with an art history instructor a few weeks ago that was like my students do a really great job talking about the history that's going around in the picture. They don't get to talk about what they see. And so that's gonna really change the game for them. Those are things we're expecting. Probably by end of this year.

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DaNadia Johnson: I like it.

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DaNadia Johnson: Yeah. And and I think it's important to note like this can be used in so many other spaces. II see so many, so many ways, that the hypothesis can be used. That's awesome. So our last question is, what does the future of education look like? What do you think?

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DaNadia Johnson: The future of education looks like thinking about just education and all the many Ed tech tools and resources and solutions that are out there. What do you think it looks like in the future.

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Joe Ferraro: you know. That's a really good question. I think if we'd asked ourselves this even 5 years ago. But I think you know.

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Joe Ferraro: we've got to start thinking about the Ed tech providers that are out there today, not just as these tools that are existing, but they're sort of pioneers in this evolving landscape that we're seeing in front of us. I think we're changing the way that people are learning. I mean, they're saying, by the end of this decade more than half of students will be taking almost all their courses online. That's gonna change the way people teach. I mean, I was working for a virtual lab company at the beginning of the pandemic. I'm sure you can imagine

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Joe Ferraro: how stressed out science instructors were on moving when they didn't even know how to use zoom yet. And so I think we had to figure out things really quickly.

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Joe Ferraro: And I think we're gonna see things adapt, especially when we've got AI, and we've got VR and AR coming down the pike like these are gonna shape things. But I think that

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Joe Ferraro: the themes that we're gonna see first is just interoperability and integration and making sure that things talk to each other and they work together. We're not gonna see these silo proprietary tools that were really big, especially 1015 years ago.

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Joe Ferraro: I think we're gonna see the Lms expand to more than what it is now. I mean, it centralizes resources. But the next step is really, how do these resources actually interact and complement with each other? They've done a great job at the grading, but the rest of it isn't quite there yet. And so I think we're gonna see more and more companies start to partner off with other providers that are complementary so that you could start to offer those suites.

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Joe Ferraro: But in AI and VR, I mean, if I was gonna make one, that it's probably that we're gonna hear a lot more about those 2 things, and I don't know what it's gonna look like. But I'm pretty excited to see

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Holly Owens: me, too. I'm always excited, and when we have these conversations and seeing what the future hold. But I really feel like. And I wanna commend you and your team a hypothesis on this. You've really built a tool that's not narrowly focused. It's one that

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Holly Owens: is applicable across all areas. And that's really challenging to do. Because there's so many different needs and wants. And like

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Holly Owens: everybody's like, well, they should do this. It should do that. But you've really taken. You've really the growth that I've seen is really, it's really, really awesome. So great job and take that back to your team, and I'm encouraging the audience to go check out the show notes so that everything about hypothesis is in there where to find it. We're gonna talk about Lms integration and use it in in Google Chrome and all the things so definitely got there, Joe, we can't thank you enough for

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Holly Owens: coming on the show and being the first episode of season 4. Forever enshrined as that. We really appreciate your time and all the things you're doing in the Ed tech space.

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Joe Ferraro: Yeah, I was really nervous when he said that, too. But I think we made it through.

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Joe Ferraro: And I do want to say to all of your listeners, we are offering a discount for new subscribers. So if you visit our website just mentioned in the comments that you heard on the edup podcast and we will make sure that's well, we're definitely gonna put that in the show notes. And we'll advertise that when we release the episode, so go out there and mentioned the show. You listen to it so you can get a discount who we love a discount. So thanks again. Thank you. And keep up the great work. I can't wait to listen to the rest of the season.

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Holly Owens: Thank you.

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DaNadia Johnson: Thank you.