136: Mastering Learning Design: Exploring Anderson University's Innovative Program & Answering the Question Do You Need a Master's Degree?

Holly Owens (00:02):

Hello everyone and welcome to another fantastic episode of Edup Ed Tech. My name is Holly Owens and my name is Nadia Johnson. And we're your hosts. We are super pumped because we have two very special guests with us today. On the show we have Dr. Katie Wolf Burson, who is the interim director of learning, or excuse me, instructional design and learning technology, the master's program at Anderson University. And we also have her wonderful colleague. We have Marissa Gilbert, who is an admissions counselor there. So ladies, welcome to the show.

Nadia Johnson (00:41):

Thank you for having us.

Katie Wolfe (00:43):

Hi everybody. We're excited to be here.

Holly Owens (00:45):

We're excited to have you. But before we jump into everything about the program at Anderson University, we definitely want to hear about you both. How did you both get to where you're at? Tell us share your stories and if Marissa, you want to go first and then Katie, you can jump in after Marissa's finished.

Marissa Gilbert (01:04):

Sure, I'll jump in. Well again, thank you guys so much for having us. My name is Marissa Gilbert and I am the associate director of our graduate studies, and I work specifically on the recruitment side, so I focus on our education. So I've been working with the wonderful folks in our College of Education for a little bit now, and through that have of course worked with the lovely Dr. Katie Wolf Burson, and we have been tag teaming it with the IDLT program for a while now. So it's been exciting stuff and I'm happy to say I am actually a student in the program as well. I jumped on board, they convinced me. We're

Holly Owens (01:47):

Excited to hear your perspective about the program, so that's awesome.

Nadia Johnson (01:51):

Absolutely.

Marissa Gilbert (01:53):

Yeah.

Katie Wolfe (01:55):

My name is Katie and I've been here at Anderson University. This is my fifth school year. I came from South Florida where I did my PhD and was a instructor at Florida Atlantic University. My background is in curriculum and instruction and I'm one of those stories where I kind of fell into instructional design. I was looking for a job after finishing up my PhD and very much looked at a posting for a learning experience designer and said, I do all those things. I have training for all those things. I need to apply for this job, for all these things. And so they were just then starting the master's degree. And so I wasn't there for quite the genesis or birth of the program, but had been there after the second or third semester. And my role has changed in a variety of ways here at the university and within the program, but it's a great program and we're so excited to be talking to you about the program and just the field in general today.

Nadia Johnson (03:00):

Yeah, we're excited too. Yeah. Also, I think I love to meet people that just kind of fell into instructional design. I feel like I'm in that category where it really was not on my radar at all and I just kind of fell into it. I'm actually an IDT graduate student, not hopefully I will be graduating in May. So I'm excited to hear more about the program and what you're offering at Anderson University. You guys aren't too far from me, so can you tell us a little bit more about the program, kind of what you offer within the program for students? And I know Marissa, you have also that perspective as a student about what type of education you're getting and how you feel like you'll be able to kind of utilize that in the ID space once you graduated. All

Katie Wolfe (03:53):

Right, I'll jump go. Hi, Katie. Thank you. And just give you some logistics about the program, what makes our program unique and just all that kind of fun stuff. So our program is a 30 credit hour, 10 course master's degree, a hundred percent online. So we have had students from all over the United States, Canada. We've had students who are US based but have been international for a while. So it really gives us some flexibility to work with students from all over. Our program is designed where you could do a fast track, meaning that our courses are seven week accelerated courses. So you can finish in as quick as a year, a 12 month cycle or what we call our traditional track, which is five semesters taking one course at a time and seven A and seven B and going through that continually. But I didn't complete my master's degree in five semesters, so that's still a really good option there.

(04:54):

And the courses focus on a variety of topics. We do everything from our intro course in instructional design to online learning to mobile learning to media development. We teach a handful of courses on current topics in the issues and issues in the course or in the program and in the field. I teach our research based course. So we have one course where our students do research about the area, very focused on a topic that interests them. And when I say one course, I mean they do research in other areas, but one extensive course on a research project. And then we have our learning portfolio course, which is the course they take at the end where they put together all of these wonderful things they've created throughout the program and kind of showcase that we're also a Apple distinguished school. And so our students, when they start the program, they get an iPad and Apple pencil.

(05:53):

We want them to use the resources, we want them to the resources that we're instructing them about. And we feel like giving them those resources to help them through the program means you don't hear, well, if I have this, how would I do it here? And if I have this, how do I do it there? It makes sure that everyone is on the same field and all of the resources from Adobe Spark, canvas to all of that, everyone gets the same idea of where things are and the usability of things. And we've had some really good response. Students say, it was really great because you screen captured it and it was the exact same way that it looked on my iPad or my whatever. So that's been really helpful. Marissa, I'm going to take a break for one second. Do you want to chime in and see if there's anything I missed?

Nadia Johnson (06:44):

For me, the student perspective, in my role working in graduate studies, I was talking to the students about instructional design and promoting the program. And to be honest, instructional design was never heard of. It was not on my radar. And as I was promoting this program, I was realizing, okay, these are all what this field encompasses or all the things that I really love to do. I love the research, I love the design, I love the why behind things, and then learning about the methodology, everything that encompasses what the IDLT program is and does. I was like, I love all these things. How do I become a part of this and really grow that and look for opportunities? So I mean, I kind of jumped in full. I think Katie and I talked about it at a, what were we at ed tech or something? And yeah,

Katie Wolfe (07:42):

We were at a tech conference

(07:43):

And within a few days I applied and was like, okay, let's get going. And I think the program is so fast paced, but what's unique I feel like about our program, the instructors, our professors are, so if you have a question, they even answered a question on Easter Sunday. It's like, no, do not be working, do not answer me. But it's just so supportive. Everybody is so plugged in the industry. There's so many things that I think this program brings to students and it's just, I had no idea the wealth of instructional design that is out there. So it is been so thrilling to see how many fields this touches. It is been awesome. It's

Holly Owens (08:27):

Really everything. I've seen job postings from Wendy's and Sephora and Lowe's and Home Depot. It's amazing. Pre covid, this would've never been the case in a post covid world. This is really instructional design has really taken off. I talked to somebody today, they're like, I didn't know about instructional what you're saying. I didn't know about instructional design. I didn't know this type of environment existed. It's like you're stepping into a whole nother different world with a different language and different type of culture. And one of the things I think about because we're talking to both of you with this program is I field a lot of questions just because I worked in higher education for most of my career as an instructional designer. And people always ask me out on LinkedIn world and other places when I interact with them. It's like, do you need a master's degree?

(09:24):

Nadia, I really wanted to have this conversation here. We're going to have this conversation here because we have two experts in the room and I want to know from you, and I love the fact when Katie was talking to me about the program, then when I met Marissa at a TDI was like, we need to have them on the show to talk about their program of the personalization and what you're offering to people. And with that accelerated track as well, that's like I don't see that a lot probably this is probably the first I've seen it. So I want to know from you both, just from being in the director perspective and your career, Katie and then Marissa, you two as you're stepping into instructional design, welcome to the community. Hi. Do people need to have a master's degree to be a successful instructional designer and why?

Katie Wolfe (10:17):

I'll go first

Holly Owens (10:20):

Loaded question, but we can all talk about it.

Katie Wolfe (10:23):

Yeah, so it is a loaded question because almost everyone who teaches in our program has a variety of backgrounds, some in instructional design, some in ed tech, some in a variety of areas because 10 years ago there was, maybe you can count on one hand the amount of master's or doctoral degrees in instructional design or instructional learning systems or in ed tech or those areas. And so if I was answering this question 10 years ago, I would've said, no, just have a background know what to do, do it well, keep going. And I still think that's the case. I still think that's the case. However, when you're talking about marketability, right? When you want to be able to have that leg up when you want to be able to say, okay, yes, I did this for 10 years and it might not be as applicable, but now I have the degree and 10 years of experience in, and I'm going to steal Marissa's thunder here.

(11:26):

Marissa has lots of experience in higher education. She might not have the ID background, but she has worked in a variety of capacities in higher ed where if she goes becomes an instructional designer, especially in higher ed, she's going to know all the lingo, she's going to know all the insights, she's going to know all the different inner workings of those things. And so that's definitely helpful to now have the degree that goes with it. But I wouldn't be fully representative of the field if I didn't say, like I said, I kind of stumbled in it and didn't know that's what it was. And that's what I was doing. And I mean, I have a PhD in curriculum and instruction, but I don't have a PhD in instructional design. Marissa, do you want to give your perspective?

Nadia Johnson (12:12):

Yeah, of course. I feel like there's so many people that are so well equipped in the field that a master's or even a bachelor's in so many fields, it's not necessary. But what I think a master's does, a graduate degree in this field does, it gives you the confidence to elevate yourself because I mean, there's so many times where we almost, not that we get complacent in our jobs, but we know what we're doing. We're good, I'm good at this. And then I feel like doing that graduate level work, it challenges you to get to the next level. You think outside the box, you're in a very collaborative, if you pick a good program, you're in a great collaborative environment that is really pushing you to learn about new things and putting new things on your radar that you, I mean, there are so many things that we have talked about as far as tech tools and different ways to go about solving problems that I never would've thought about.

(13:13):

And I feel like so much of ID is stuff that I do or I did before, but now it's like I have really opened up so many more opportunities because I keep putting myself out there like, oh, well, hey, what if we tried it this way? Or what if we did this? Or what if we incorporated this? And for the first time in several years, my position is starting to shift and I'm getting new opportunities. So for me it is. And graduate school was never on my radar until this, and now it's like, why didn't I do this before? And now I'm even thinking like, okay, now what's next after this? So I don't know. Yeah, it is been amazing.

Speaker 5 (13:57):

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is I see this conversation, should you just go and learn the tools through a certificate program or is it worth it to actually go get the instructional design degree? And I think the biggest thing for me is that learning tools is not, I just don't think it's that difficult to learn a new tool and to build learning. I think what going to graduate school and actually learning instructional design does, especially for me is it's helped me to think about learning differently. It's helped me to that foundational piece, those theories, those ID theories, it's helped me to think about learning in a different light. And that's what good instructional designers need. We need to be thinking about how to do the things that are going to make the learning accessible, but also make the learning good, make the learning help people to learn and be able to do the things that they need to do.

(14:59):

So I think it's just helped me think about learning differently. It's helped me look at the learning science, the learning technologies, the different things that you can do with learning, because anybody can learn a tool, anybody can learn, articulate, anybody. I mean, that takes time and skill of course. But I think the biggest thing that degree programs offer you is the foundational piece that some of those certificate programs or kind of quick, let's build modules, let's build a portfolio programs kind of do. And I think they both serve their purpose, but I think that's what it has done for me. And I just think that that's something that I'm proud that I went that route. So I definitely wanted to have that conversation here because I know we're talking about IDT programs and yeah, I think that's a big thing that a lot of people don't think about when they think about ID is that foundational piece of just learning how to create learning.

Katie Wolfe (16:05):

And I think it's important, Nadia, you're saying the foundation, there's so many students in our program, at least who have been in education, have been in higher ed, and they say time and time again, I was doing that. I didn't know it was a thing because they don't have that structure. And again, I tell them all the time, that's great. I'm glad you did it. How do we then finish the thing, right? Because part of an overall design process or it's part of an overall creation from the origin of the idea to the evaluation, whatever it is. And so when you have that knowledge, you can come in and say, but now we're missing a part. This is where we need to put this back in. And I do think it is more than just going in and doing. I mean, we have a certificate in online mobile learning.

(16:57):

It's not in ID certificate, but there are things you can add on to do that. But to see how those things play into the tech tools you learned good design, a learning experience, and from the user point of view, right? So much we think about we design it, we put it out there, it's great on the user side, we know that isn't always the case. We've all been in those trainings where you went, when is it going to end? Right? You just wanted to be done. Whereas if it's good design, it's good design either way.

Speaker 5 (17:31):

Yeah. Yeah. Digging deeper into the process and the theories and all of that, it's just been helpful for me. So I know, I'm sure it's Marissa, I'm sure you feel like you're learning so much and able to then go into ID and apply so much knowledge in a different way. So I know that you spoke a little bit about collaboration, and this is an online program, so I'm interested in learning a little bit about the collaboration between educators and students. How do you guys successfully collaborate within the program? I know online can be different, but I think it can still definitely be done. So I'm interested to know a little bit more about that within the program.

Nadia Johnson (18:20):

Do you want to start first, Katie? I'll jump in.

Katie Wolfe (18:22):

Yeah, I'll take this. So the first thing I'll say is collaboration comes in my opinion, in three forms. You collaborate with your peers, you collaborate with the content area, and you collaborate with your instructors. I'll say we have amazing people who have designed amazing courses. And as I tell my students constantly, we try to practice what we preach. We want them to then design good courses so we make sure everything is aligned and all of that. So easy peasy. That part we discuss when it comes to designing courses and being purposeful with engagement with your instructors. For us, that comes in a couple of different forms. First, we make sure that all of our current instructors are people in the fields doing the things. So we have a practitioner faculty member kind of program. And that's not to knock other programs. You need people in the field who are great scholars in the field.

(19:19):

And I think all of our instructors are both, but we have people who do a variety of id ed tech work in a variety of ways. And so I think that really gives our students the opportunity. I've had two or three adjuncts say, my students found out I do X, Y, and z. I now have two zoom calls. They want to know what that looks like in the ID world. And I'm like, thank you. And they talk about how much they enjoy it. Some of our students who are local here in the upstate have met with professors and had a cup of coffee and said, what would that look like if I did this? What would that look like if I did that? Is this plausible? All of those different things. And as a program director makes my little program director heart happy because they're making those connections with their professors.

(20:08):

But at the same time, our professors just get so excited when they hear it because their students are wanting that aspect of it. So there's that part. When it comes to the student to student interaction, we are very purposeful at how we do that. We want our students to engage with each other. So I'm not going to sit there and say, we never have a discussion board where you post by X day and reply to two people by X day and do no. But we try to make them fun and exciting. We do a lot more video discussion boards. In the past, we've used Flip sometimes because of Canvas Studio. Now it's just a little easier sometimes to just use that. We do collaborative things where I'll build blank pages or Google Doc pages and everyone's contributing at the same time. And they'll say, oh, somebody added this.

(21:00):

And then I'll give an example. In my research class that I teach, my students will say to me, we have groups. And I go, yeah, you're doing your own research project, but to be a good id, you need to not just be focused on your things. You need to be looking and critiquing the things of others. And they'll constantly say, how did you make up our groups? And I go, I pick people who are different than you don't need. If you're a K 12 teacher to hear more K 12 stuff, you need someone in higher ed, someone in corporate, and all of these areas. And the amount of times between that class and the online class that I teach where they go, they told me things, I had no idea that was a thing in that arena. And I'm like, that's more teaching than I could do probably in a semester.

(21:45):

And the point of it is for them to reach those connections in different ways. And then the last one, so I said there was three, but I also feel like they really need to connect with the greater ID community out there. And so we host twice a semester something called A-I-D-L-T talk. Holly very graciously was a guest earlier this term for us, but it is allowing them to interact, talk, to ask questions, and hear from people doing the things they do and they want to be doing. And so our hashtag IDLT talk, the hashtags are still a cool thing, are an opportunity for them to really engage with people, subject matter and each other. So it really kind of is a great way to boil all of those areas into one. Marissa, did I miss any or

Nadia Johnson (22:42):

No, that was perfect. I think before I started this program, I had never done an online course before, and I did my undergraduate when it was, that was not a thing. So had you asked me what does collaboration look like in an online environment, I would have no idea. And this has been mind blowing to feel like I'm connected with the other students because in some ways we do. We're not a cohort per se, but you do see a lot of the same names as you go through the classes. And I mean, there are so many people that I feel like we're friends.

(23:24):

I was even talking to my colleagues today like, oh yeah, so-and-so is doing this. And I feel like there's such a great connection. And as Katie pointed out, there's so many different fields represented in the program. So you truly are learning about what all these people are doing and best for them, and you're just pulling pieces together to help build a toolkit for yourself. So that has been amazing. And just the dynamics and the discussions and everybody is so supportive. And so it is been a really neat way to see how collaboration can be done. Well done. So I've loved it. Yeah.

Holly Owens (24:06):

Yeah. Honestly too, that's how it works in the real world with instructional design too, is that's how teams work and that open communication that support that constant feedback loop about your projects and what's happening. So in the program, it sounds like they're really mirroring what's happening in a real world experience as an instructional designer. And you add that other element of guest speakers coming in and speaking about their experiences too, to get insight. There's nothing like something that is completely applicable right away for the students. So having their speakers there, what they're learning in the program and applying it, making the portfolio, we all have those as instructional designers. So I really say going back to the Do you need a master's? I think you need a master's for the variety of reasons you're saying, but also the constant connection that you have to the people in the community because it gives you this space. I'm related to dating.

(25:07):

When you're dating, it's really hard nowadays to meet somebody just in person. So it's really, it's hard to meet an instructional designer in the wild. So you actually have to go online and go into a program to meet other instructional designers or people who are passionate about that. So you can start developing your networks too. And I think one of the things that I'm assuming and know you do really well is keeping contact with your alumni and making sure that they're coming back and saying what they're doing and their successes and all that, and seeing what your program brings to everybody. So that support is, yeah, go jump

Katie Wolfe (25:48):

In. I was going to say was something on that. So again, I didn't start with the first group of students we had by the time I came in, we were two groups in, but our first group went to graduate and they said to the previous program director, what do we do now? We don't get to see each other every week. And they were just so connected with each other. And like Marissa said, you feel like you know everybody, right? And so we invite all of our alumni to all of our IDLT talks. We have had a couple of our alumni actually speak at IDLT talks, which has been amazing because they're like, hi, I'm now doing the thing. I was trained to do the thing. I'm now doing the thing in the field for the thing. And so it's been really great to have our current students learn and hear all of these things because again, not just their network, but it's making their network grow with alumni who are already there as well as keeping that conversation going with 'em. And we have alumni who reach out all the time, Dr. wb, that's what they call me. I found I had a job doing this and I'm now doing this, and they find me on LinkedIn and I tell 'em all the time, your title changed. That's so cool.

(27:06):

We're learning all these things about what they've been up to. It's been really great.

Holly Owens (27:10):

It is really awesome. So that speaks a lot to how great and positive your program is, and I love that. And I could just tell when you're presenting it, like at TD and talking to risk and stuff, I was like, this would've been an awesome program to go into. I got my master's degrees some years ago now, but I want to know from you as an organization, you've established this great program. So what are you looking forward to? What's upcoming for you in the next year or so? Or what are you looking forward to developing? There's a lot of different things that are happening in the instructional design field, ai, what is up and coming for y'all?

Katie Wolfe (27:54):

So it's so funny you asked that, Holly, because we have felt the need from everybody and everyone's interest and everyone writing all the time about, oh, this is a new trend. And Oh, what about this? We have approved for the first time a elective course students can take in substitution on AI and learning. And Dr. Reto is teaching that this summer. I have helped him design aspects of it, and he's going to get that up and going, but it is going to be a course on, actually, I think I said the title wrong. I think it's AI Infused Learning, and basically talk about infused. Yeah, that

Holly Owens (28:32):

Sounds so fancy.

Katie Wolfe (28:34):

I know. And we're basically going to talk about what AI is, what does it mean for education? What does it mean for the field of instructional design? What does it mean for all this? And we made it an option for our students too. So it is taking the place of the current trends and issues course. So we have had about half of our students still want to take the regular course, and about half of our students wanting to take that course this summer. Yes, Marissa's taken that course this summer. I think you were the second or third, the one who signed up.

(29:08):

Yes, she did. It's been a really good opportunity, and it's a way for us to, again, kind of gauge the temperature of what's going on. This is a hot topic. This is something, I mean, how many blog posts and all the things do we see conferences, all of that around that particular topic of brown people saying, what does this mean for the field? And so that's a really exciting thing we got coming up this summer. And then of course, I had all the students go, are you offering it again? And I said, well, we'll see one, how it goes the first time, and two, how many students are interested if we try to do it again to give opportunity a couple of times a year for that to be going on. That's the main one I can think of is our AI course. We're constantly trying to forge new partnerships. We are engaged, as Holly mentioned, we met her at a TD. And so we've been trying to engage in, and I think that's a good segue as instructional design. As we've said, Sephora, Lowe's, who was it? The Denver Broncos NFL team. I mean, all these

Holly Owens (30:16):

Groups. Oh yeah, he's on the Jets. I've been trying to get him on the show for a year. He transferred. He went from the Broncos to the Jets now.

Katie Wolfe (30:24):

Okay, well see. You're up on it more than I'm, I did not know. Well, because

Holly Owens (30:28):

I've been stalking him to get him on the podcast.

Katie Wolfe (30:32):

Well, there you go. All these different fields. We really want our students to be able to reap the benefits of all the different fields and resources. And I was like, why aren't we plugging in with a TD? Why aren't we plugging in with all these other groups? And so we're really trying to forge new partnerships, not just across the state, but across different kind of training and development, other areas of ID that we don't always call ID and really show not just our students, but again, those partnerships and being able to have that reciprocal area there. Marissa, am I forgetting any?

Nadia Johnson (31:09):

I think you covered it. Yeah,

Katie Wolfe (31:13):

Those are the big ones. I mean, we have a couple of small tech conferences throughout the state and K 12 things we do every summer. So those are still on our docket. We're still doing those. But yeah, I think those are the big ones.

Holly Owens (31:28):

Love it. Love it. How you're forming those partnerships in the outside community. Once you do get your master's degree and you land a role, you still have to professionally develop, and that's a good partnership to have.

Speaker 5 (31:40):

Yeah, now it's tackling the mindset and the work that comes with being in the field and actually working. So yeah, it's important for that. So we're coming up on the close of the episode. We just wanted to make sure that we didn't miss anything. If there was anything else you wanted to share about the program, thoughts, any thoughts on instructional design, anything that we missed that you want to throw out there about this wonderful program at Anderson University?

Katie Wolfe (32:13):

Marissa, I'm going to let you go first. I kind of have two different thoughts. One about the program and then kind of where I see Id going, but I'll let you go first.

Nadia Johnson (32:21):

Yeah, I would say if anybody is on the fence about doing a program, getting their graduate program and what that means to them, Katie and I, Dr. wb and I are always happy to chat through things. And speaking from a student perspective, I'll be graduating in August, so I'm a little over halfway under my belt, but I cannot speak highly enough. I mean, of course I work at Anderson University, but I've also immersed myself in this program, and I really cannot speak highly enough of the program, what it's done for me personally, professionally. I think they really do take it to the next level, and I've learned so much. So if anybody is ever wanting to chat through what that could mean for them, we're always open for conversation. And yeah, there's just so much opportunity out there. So I'm excited.

Holly Owens (33:15):

Yeah, we're going to put everything in the show notes too about the program and where to reach both of you so people can Wonderful. So go there right now.

Katie Wolfe (33:23):

Thank you. Yeah, that'd be awesome.

Holly Owens (33:24):

Send a message. You're welcome. Of course.

Katie Wolfe (33:27):

Awesome, awesome. So like I said, I had two different tidbits. One would be first just to check out the program, kind of with what Marissa's saying in regard to talking to us. The great thing about this program, it hits such a variety of areas. We have people who come to the program and they'll say, I'm the one at my school district. I don't have officially have a technology background, but everyone comes to me all the time and wants to know all the ed tech stuff. I ran out of stuff to say, I need to learn new stuff. We have other people who say, I want to make a career change, or they come straight from undergrad and say, there wasn't really an ID degree at my institution. I know I need the master's to do that, so check it out. And that's my one thing.

(34:11):

We have so many people in a variety of areas within instructional design, educational technology, training and development. And we just have such a great group of faculty as well as alumni who so many times people have said, plug me with somebody if they're interested. So check that part out and see if it is a good fit for you. Like Nadia said, sometimes it is just learning different tools or technologies, but sometimes you need that all encompassing, foundation backbone, everything when it comes to that whole, I'm making weird analogies, whole skeletal structure of and structural design.

Holly Owens (34:47):

I like it. I see an infographic coming out around October.

Katie Wolfe (34:53):

I know, I mean the head, the rib cage, supporting all the things. All of it. All the things, all the things. It's going to happen. And then the second thing I would say, which is again, I don't want to sound like a cop out for why you need an ID degree, is ID is not consistent. It is ever changing. It's the old adage of you can't step in the same river twice. And all of those homage type, I mean, there is so many things learning and new all the time. This AI class we're doing this summer is just one example of one way we're trying to meet that need. We want our students, if that's something they're interested in, to be equipped in those areas. So we're constantly trying new things as all good IDs, do you see which one works and which ones don't? But we're constantly trying new things. We're constantly trying to plug in with new people and do those things. So if you're one of those people or groups and you're like, wow, that part just sounds cool, please again, reach out to myself or Marissa. We love making those connections and we love learning more and getting as many people involved in the program as possible.

Holly Owens (36:04):

Sounds amazing. Well, we can't thank you both enough for coming on and talking about one of the hot questions. If the master's degree is necessary and instructional, it's worth it. It's worth it. Nadia works at a publisher. I work at Amazon and we both have master's. Nadia, I'm considering you having a master's degree at this place, may so close. naia, I graduating. We're almost there.

Katie Wolfe (36:31):

She's got the countdown going. I mean, literally.

Holly Owens (36:34):

Yes. So I'm considering that you have the master's degree and it is definitely necessary. But thank you both for coming on and talking about Anderson and the program. We appreciate it. Well,

Katie Wolfe (36:45):

Thank you both for having us and you guys have a fabulous rest of your day.

Holly Owens (36:49):

Yeah, thank you guys.