137: Starting Your Career Transition: Taking the First Step to a Career in L&D

Holly Owens (00:21):

Well, hello everyone and welcome to the live. I'm so glad you're here just getting everything set up here and looking forward to chatting with you about starting your career transition and transitioning into a role in learning and development. So really glad that you are here and coming to chat with me today and excited to share some resources with you as well as some best advice here. And just cut through some of the noise that's been out there recently about things when we're talking about transitioning into a career in instructional design, learning experience design or anything in the l and d field. So super pumped to share with you some of the best tips and tricks. Put my headphones back on and I would love it. We're using Streamy yard here, so if you have questions, feel free to type those in the chat and I will definitely get to those when I can.

(01:23):

It's just me today. But first I want to start off by saying that I so appreciate this community and I get a lot of different LinkedIn messages coming through my inbox about transitioning into l and d and what should I do? Where should I start? Can you help me? Should I update my resume? There's a lot of different questions that I get asked, and I just love this community because everybody is so kind and so caring and so helpful when it comes to helping others transition, especially those who are trying to transition out of the education space into let's say instructional design. So I just want to say thank you to the community. There's a lot of great people that exist here and are very welcoming and will definitely help you as you begin to set yourself on a new journey. So today I just want to be really open and honest with you about starting your career transition and hoping that I can give you some applicable tips and some resources that make you feel a little bit better and make you feel a little bit more relaxed about where you're headed.

(02:39):

I will say that this journey, and I'll talk a little bit about my journey first into where I'm at right now has been one that has been very windy as most people who transition into an L and D role. They are, I didn't say when I was younger, I wanted to be an instructional designer at Amazon Pharmacy, and that's what I do now. So I'll definitely share some of my best tips and tricks in my story with you, but like I said, again, feel free to leave comments, feel free to leave questions into the chat and I will answer them as I can. So starting out, I want to say I want to start with my journey and getting to where I'm sitting today. So I started out my career as a high school educator since I was a little girl in eighth grade. I knew I wanted to be a teacher and I was going to teach science, and then I ended up in college going into a different major.

(03:41):

So I did American studies. So I ended up teaching social studies. I taught government for four years, and then I transitioned out into a role as an e-learning developer very early on back in 2012. E-learning development wasn't huge like it is now. So I did that with the government for a few months as a contractor, and then I landed a role at Northern Virginia Community College as an instructional technology specialist where I was supporting faculty and the use of EdTech tools, which you all know I love. I host EdTech podcast with Nadia Johnson, and I was just training them and I just loved EdTech. I did a lot of EdTech stuff when I was in teaching and then I also started helping them maybe design some of things in their courses that would help their students in designing more meaningful learning experiences. And then I started learning more about accessibility in the classroom and I brought some of my knowledge from my own classroom there to higher education.

(04:50):

And eventually I transitioned into an instructional technologist role at Coppin State University in West Baltimore. And I went through different universities in the USM, including UMBC, Coppin, and then I moved to New York and I did, I still worked in higher education and I did instructional design at this point. And then I transitioned and got promoted to assistant director of instructional design for online education at Touro University. So my journey has been one that has mostly been through higher education. And then after higher education, I left and I worked for an online program management company, academic partnerships, they're hiring, there are a lot of different roles there if you're looking. And I was an senior instructional designer there helping faculty stand up their accelerated online courses, so doing QA reviews, quality matters, all those different things. And then I found my job at Amazon as an instructional designer with Amazon Pharmacy, which I'm going to be coming up here on celebrating two years with Amazon Pharmacy, and it's been a great learning experience.

(06:06):

So I've transitioned from education from K to 12 to higher education, and now I am a corporate instructional designer at pharmacy. And I have learned so much throughout my 17 years in this industry and transitioning roles is a normal thing for people to do nowadays. So I wanted to start with this session and taking the first step into your career because like I said, I get a lot of different questions in my inbox about, well, where do I start? Can you look over my resume? How do I set up my LinkedIn profile, how anything you can think of is flying into my inbox. So I wanted to be sure to clarify where do you actually start? So let's get into it. So the first thing I want you to do right now is I want to think about where you're at in your current career and what you're doing.

(07:08):

And I want you to take a moment, just maybe a minute or two, and I'll pause for that and think about what you want to do, what you want in a role. So when you're thinking about this, what do you want in a new role? Think about why you're transitioning or thinking about the transition and what do you want in a new role? Maybe write down three to four things that you want. You want it to be remote, you have a certain salary expectation, you need flexibility in your schedule. You have children who are in school or you take your caretaker. So you need some flexibility around scheduling. Think about what you want in a role. And the reason I'm asking you to do this is because we have a tendency when we're first starting out, when we're going to look for roles, we will just apply for anything because we want something new. And I want us to be very cognizant of that, and I want us to be very purposeful about what we're applying for to find something that works for us. So take about a minute and I'll pause and I'll probably, maybe I'll put up the 32nd countdown timer real quick. Take a moment to write down what do you want in a role, what do you want in a role?

(09:14):

Okay, so I hope you had a few seconds to think about that and you can continue making your list of what you want in the new role. And this is really going to inform the answer to the next question that I want you to think about when you're transitioning into a new role or thinking about the transition into a new role. And this is what I thought about for myself as well, is I needed something that is remote. I needed something that was flexible. I take care of my family and I have 80-year-old grandparents, so I need some flexibility around that if I need to go over to their house and do whatever for them in the mornings or later in the afternoons, and then I can come back and work and still get my hours in. So thinking about what needs to happen, what you need from a role, and all too often we think that the companies or corporations and organizations that we apply for have all the power because they're the ones offering us the role, but that's not the case.

(10:13):

We definitely can find, there's tons of organizations out there that have flexibility, unlimited PTO, great salaries, great benefits, what we need in order to sustain our lifestyle. So I really want you to take into consideration what you really want in a role. And then the next question I have, and this is something that I think about, is where you want to be. So I get a lot of questions and I get a lot of things. I want to be an instructional designer. I love that you want to be in an instructional designer, and I think that's wonderful. This is a great community, like I said, but what type of instructional designer do you want to be? What type of learning experience designer do you want to be? What sector do you be in? Where do you want to be? And I want to share, let me share my screen real quick, share screen and just showing you right now, let's do, so when you're thinking about I, let me do, I don't need the speaker notes. Let me do this one more time. Let me present this. So when we're thinking about where you want to be

(11:50):

And if we're thinking about the various sectors that exist in the l and d market, and I'm sure there's more, there's obviously things like entrepreneurship. So thinking about what sector you want to be in because they vary based off of roles and thinking like, okay, so if you're a transitioning teacher, for example, do you want to make the leap from K to 12 to education l and d or instructional design or something that's affiliated with education, maybe something that's on the peripheral. When I jumped into an online program management company, while they weren't necessarily a higher education institution, they worked on the peripheral with a multitude of higher education institutions, and that felt very comfortable for me because I understood the education system. I understood how higher ed worked. So is that area where you want to be in? I will say that notoriously in the education sectors, and it is getting better.

(12:57):

For example, role in instructional design, you do get paid a little bit less than say you would in the corporate sector, but there are instances where you can find different roles that pay upwards of starting out entry level, 60 to 70,000, and then mid to senior level, going to the 80, 90, a hundred thousand reins. And then if you matriculate through the institution or the organization, you can be making six figures plus in the education space, it may just take a little while for you to get there. Then we have the corporate space. Those are the Amazons, the Microsoft, the Googles, the smaller organizations where you are in a corporate space, it moves a little bit faster. You have to know different technologies like articulate. You're dealing more with adult learners, you do that some too in education, but depending on where you go and gogi, the adult learning theory, understanding the different Adobe products, all the different things that go into the design process itself, is that something that you're interested in and thinking about in the corporate space, how fast it moves.

(14:10):

Education on the other side of that moves a little bit slower. As most of us know who have worked in the space, it takes a little bit for them to catch on to some of the trends in the industry. But in corporate typically moves fast depending upon where you're at. So if you like that fast pace, if you know the different technologies or you want to upskill on the different technologies, you would definitely want to go on the corporate space. Then there's another option for you as well. If you don't know, you're like, I don't know if I want new education or corporate, maybe freelance is the answer for you. So freelancing is basically setting your own schedule, landing contracts with different companies, maybe doing some design work for them, some development work, maybe curriculum development. And you're doing maybe three months, six months, 12 year contracts just going out there using your talents and freelancing and setting your own schedule.

(15:06):

But you will have to do some of the grunt work to make those connections to establish yourself in the freelance world that you have to think about how much are you going to charge? What does a project look like? What does that process? You're going to be managing everything yourself. It's like working for yourself. So you could start your own LLC, you can be your own business, you can be your own boss. And quite recently I've seen quite a bit of contract roles come across that are very lucrative and also look very much great for experience on the resume. So maybe you can freelance for a little bit and then you can jump into if you think, well, maybe I want to go into the corporate sector. So now you have this experience of freelancing behind. You've worked for various smaller, larger organizations, you've developed things, you have a portfolio, and then you can jump into one of these other sectors.

(16:03):

Then the other one is government, nonprofit. The department of education was hired an instructional designer recently an instructional technologists, nonprofit organizations like the American Red Cross. If this is a sector that you are passionate about, and this is something that you want to be in maybe working for the DOD one of the departments of the interior department of the interior, anything government related or nonprofit related, this is something that you want to be in. Maybe establish more of that security in the government and you get great benefits, then you can think about maybe I should explore some opportunities that exist in the government. Maybe in your freelance work, you did some government contracting with the DOD or you did something with the department of Ed and you could use your connections to get in there. And then the last one, the last of the sectors that I want to mention, this is mostly on the peripheral, is the EdTech industry.

(16:59):

So those companies say for example, like Instructor iSpring, Nearpod, EDpuzzle, all those different companies that support educational institutions and helping them maybe with LMS stuff, helping students in the classroom with support and using different instructional technologies that support learning. If this is something that you want to do, you can go into sales or you can go into the training support for the ed tech industry. So that's very much on the peripheral of learning development, and I really think it is a part of it, honestly. So this question is where do you want to be? Because a lot of the time you have to think about, I want to be in the government, or I want to be in freelance. I want to work for myself, or I want to be, let's say in the ed tech industry. I want to start out there. And of course, as you start gaining experience, you can bounce around the different ones. And as you start learning about them, then you can figure out where you want to be, maybe test some stuff out with the freelance and then go into you really enjoyed working with an education company or an organization.

(18:18):

Then the next thing, so we said, take a moment. You wrote down what you want in a role. You have that list what you want in a role in your head, or you have it written down, you can paste it somewhere so you can see it every day. So that's what you're looking for. So you're just not randomly applying to roles, you're actually taking some time to think about where you want to be. And then the next thing is thinking about the sectors. There are pros and cons to every sector of learning and development and instructional design. Like I said, education moves slow, notoriously plays left. Corporate pays more, but moves really fast, might be not something you like. So you really have to think about the different pros and the cons and weigh those based off of what you want in a role. The next thing that I recommend doing when you're starting out and you notice I haven't even said anything at this point about a resume applying to jobs.

(19:16):

I mentioned portfolio because you do need one of those, but I haven't said anything about professional materials whatsoever. This is completely pre-stage. What you need to do before you start applying to different roles. The next thing you need to do is do your research. So research to me means that I am going out, let's say for example, I want to work in the corporate sector. I'm going out researching different roles, and I want to see, let's say, let's say I want to work at Amazon or Google or I want to work at a smaller company, maybe something like a health insurance company. I know they hire lots of instructional designers. I want to research and look at the roles and what they require. So looking at the job descriptions, what technologies that they have available for support, looking at how their onboarding is, if that's laid out, because a lot of job descriptions nowadays will lay out what your 30, 60, 90 days will look like, what your first year will look like with the company.

(20:33):

So I like to go out and do research and kind of take into consideration what does this job description say that I like? What does it say that I don't like? Is there room for growth? So I need to do some research into the different companies maybe that I want to apply for or just looking in that sector for jobs. So I'm not going to look at education jobs, I'm not going to look at government jobs. I'm going to strictly focus on that corporate space and kind of compare and contrast and see what the job descriptions are saying and seeing if I could fulfill and bring something to the table for these roles. And if we're going back to that initial question, what you want in a role, is it fulfilling the expectations or the needs and wants I have there. So definitely do your research before you start applying to jobs. All too often I hear people say, they say, Holly, I'm so tired. I've applied to over 200 roles. I haven't got an interview.

(21:39):

I haven't landed even an initial interview or a phone screen. I keep getting rejection letters. I completely understand and I understand you feel like if you applied a whole bunch, one of 'em is going to stick. But if you're not focusing in on what you want to do and where you want to be, they're not. It's just going to be like if you play the lottery lottery and you buy a hundred tickets and somebody else buys one and they win the same amount of statistically, everybody has the same amount of chances. So focusing in is really going to help you hone in on where you want to be and then doing that research to see what the different roles entail and the different responsibilities, maybe fill in some gaps where you need to upskill. And then I also recommend talking to people in those roles so that having that connection, reaching out, and I know a lot of people say this, but you want to make that genuine connection with people.

(22:38):

You don't just want to say, I'm looking at a role at Amazon, can you recommend me for it? I get those in my inbox all the time. I'm like, I don't know your experience. I don't have a copy of your resume. We haven't even chatted. We don't have a relationship. But you're going to have to spend some time developing those relationships as well. So that's my next recommendation is developing those relationships with people who are in the sector that are successful landing the role and maybe they've transitioned as well. There's tons of us who have transitioned out of education. So developing those relationships with people and not expecting necessarily something in return. You just want to get information. Again, you're doing research here, developing the relationship, you're making a connection. Some of the best people I've met, some of the best people online and through LinkedIn.

(23:32):

Some of my very best friends are from LinkedIn and I've never met in person, which is interesting. So you can start developing those relationships. And I haven't mentioned at this point, we're almost 25 minutes in your resume, any of your professional materials. We've gone through what you want in a role, where you want to be. We have the various sectors, we have the research and then developing the relationships. So those are five things that you should start doing right off the bat that are completely applicable to right now that you should start doing before you even start applying to roles in the l and d industry. I think this is going to set you up for success, and this is going to give you an idea of what the differences are between the different sectors and what you can do in order to be successful in your transition to actually make the transition.

(24:40):

And I'm not going to say that this is easy, and I'm not going to say that this is going to happen overnight. Not anytime you see things out there on the web that say, we'll get you a role in six weeks. We'll get you a role in four weeks, whatever, insert obscure number here. It's not happening. I don't want you to come in here thinking that if you start doing all these things, the jobs is going to land in your lap, not it's a lot of hard work, but also too, it's going to be a very rewarding path because you're going to find people who are in your corner, you're going to find a supportive community and you're going to be able to understand how this industry works. It's always changing, so don't think that it's going to happen overnight. That's one of the things that I definitely wanted mention in this chat is a lot of people message me and they're like, well, I just haven't landed anything yet, and it's been four weeks, and they said it would take this long.

(25:34):

You can't put, there's no guarantee. There's definitely no guarantee. And one of the things I will mention is that the job market for l and d, while there are a variety and a plethora of different roles, it's become very competitive and it's become very saturated with people who are leaving the K to 12 space and people who are looking for different roles and the layoffs that are happening. So it's definitely become more competitive. So you're going to have to stand out, and that's something I'm going to talk about in a future. One of the three part mini series is going to probably be the last one. So it's not something that's easy. You really have to be in a mindset where you are ready and prepared that this is a journey. It's a marathon, not a sprint for going through and finding what works for you because you do have needs and you want to make sure that that role fits you just as much as you feel with that company or that culture and that role.

(26:26):

So please don't think that something's going to happen overnight and those promises that are being made, you can't guarantee anything. You can't guarantee. I can't say, even if I had a role open at Amazon and I knew this person was perfect for the role, I can't guarantee that they're going to get it. That's not something that's going to happen, especially in this job market. So all I can say to you is do the things that I'm talking about and then we'll go into the professional materials and what you need in order to apply for the roles and just do your best. One of the other things I like to caution against is people applying to, like I said, 200 roles and thinking that one's going to stick. It might, there's an anomaly that happens all the time, and I'm so happy that happens for people. But again, you need to be strategic about applying for the different roles and also too, making sure that you're just not randomly applying to stuff that you don't want to do.

(27:34):

It's definitely, yeah. Yep, yep. Adrian just said, I completely agree. It has been a serious journey to find a role. I second research and network. It's very old school nowadays. You have to know somebody that knows somebody and you definitely just don't want to make the connection with some people and not make that not feel genuine because people feel used in this industry, people who've been in the industry longer than I have, and you're just reaching out for the connection. You want to learn about them, read their profile, know what they've been through, know what kinds of roles they've had in the past. I get people asking me about UX design. I've never been a UX designer, I've only been an instructional designer. I know about ux, but please read over people's profiles, make those genuine connections. You never know what could happen. They know somebody that knows somebody, and you all could have a very symbiotic relationship where you're supporting each other in different endeavors.

(28:34):

I've done things where people are like, I need to learn this, so can you please show me how to do this? And I'm happy to refer you to those sorts of situations. So it really is a journey. Adrian, you're right. I think there's a lot of noise out there right now, especially with people ending their teacher contracts and people wanting to jump into different academies or different workshops and thinking about should I invest in myself? You have to do all these things first before you think about investing your money in some of these paid for activities. It's really important that you understand that you need to know where you're going. You need to know where you want to be before you start investing money. Investing money is not going to necessarily get you the role either. It's going to help you with connections, is going to help you build community.

(29:30):

And there are a lot of great resources and a lot of great academies and different workshops out there, but it's not necessarily going to guarantee that you land the role. So you have to think about where you're putting your investment for your time and where you're putting your investment for your money. So let's go through that again, let's go back to the beginning. Let's think about you took a moment, you wrote down what you want to role. You have to figure out where you want to be in thinking about those different sectors that we talked about. Then doing the research and developing those relationships. And the next thing, and this is another thing that I get asked about a lot, is resources. What do I do for resources? There are so many different things out there. I don't know where to start. I don't know who's legit, who's not.

(30:27):

I really just need something. And I think one of the things that people do, like there's a lot of different people out there like myself, Carol North, jd, Dylan, oh my gosh, how did I forget his name? Ed tech guy. It'll come to me posting jobs regularly for you and curating them so that you can kind of figure out where you want to be. So don't feel like you have to do all the things. And I would say if you are thinking about transitioning into a role and you know have to do all these different things, you have to get your LinkedIn ready, you have to get your resources ready and doing these five things that I just mentioned, spend 20 minutes a day. Don't make it a full-time job because you're going to get burnout very, very quickly when it comes to searching for roles and applying for roles, and then it's going to burnout.

(31:29):

It's going to turn into disappointment because you're going to see that you're getting rejection emails because you weren't prepared. And I just put a link in the chat that is to my curated resources of things that I have taken the past year or so to kind of filter out, and I'll share this on the screen as well. It's a list of carried resources that I update frequently for those who are thinking about transitioning into instructional design. But honestly, it's in anything l and d, there's people to follow podcasts, to listen to books that you can look into once you figure out what industry you want to go into. Again, these things are just supportive pieces that are going to help you throughout your journey so that you can feel more confident and comfortable with where you are headed. Like I said, it's not something that's going to happen overnight and the pay for things are marked with an asterisk.

(32:30):

So if there's something that you are like, I maybe want to invest in Idle Courses Academy, which I love, great for corporate instructional designers and upskilling yourself and having all these skills that Robin has developed and she's developed some great courses and some great training, but are you going to be a corporate instructional designer? So that might be something you want to invest in, or are you thinking about going into higher education instructional design? Then you might want to look into Luke Coon's Instructional Design Institute. So this is why you have to think about where you want to be because you can't just like, I'm going to pay for this, I'm going to pay for that. And I know a lot of people are like, if I pay for this, it's going to fulfill me. It's going to get me a job. No, you need to be intentional about what you do.

(33:12):

Be very intentional about. So these are some of my favorite resources and like I said, I update them frequently. I add people to the list. There's YouTube channels. Feel free to spend your 20 minutes a day listening to a Tim Slade video about e-learning development and instructional design because you're going to learn something every time you sit down. If you have a commute, listen to a podcast, listen to Luke's podcast, listen to my podcast, listen to any podcast that's on that list that has something to do with learning and development, something to do with job transitioning so that you feel like you're just getting some more motivation. You're getting reinvigorated like the path is here, I'm on the path and I'm doing something to better myself every day to better myself every day. One of the questions that just got asked is, how do you get to know people on LinkedIn?

(34:03):

So I think this is a great question that has a lot of different answers. One of the things I would say is I get a lot of generic messages in my inbox about, can you help me with this? I can promote your podcast or get lots of salesy things. And I think the way you be the most genuine is to be the most honest. You tell the person you're looking for a new role. You saw that they worked in the industry and you just wanted to tap into their knowledge a little bit. So be your most authentic self is part of that. You're not just skating around and having pleasantries and things like that and saying, hi, how are you? And then asking for something. Just say right off the bat, my name is Holly. I'm a K to 12 educator. I'm looking to transition into instructional design.

(34:48):

Can you give me one piece of advice of how you successfully transitioned back in blank? Because that means you looked at their profile. So you have to show interest in something that they're doing, and you're not just randomly connecting and following with all the people that you can are actually being intentional about your connections. I get tons of connections every day, and while I do accept in, some people don't even message me and say, hi, are you? I usually send a message, says, thanks for connecting. What interests you about my profile? Why did you connect? But I usually don't get a response. So showing that genuine connection with people, that's one of the best things about being a human. So thinking about that and developing again, those relationships that are going to help you and support your journey. Now, while somebody might not be able to offer your job, they might be your accountability buddy.

(35:38):

They might be standing to the supportive role when you have a bad day because we're all out there looking for different roles and different things and trying to upscale ourselves and also trying to better ourselves. So maybe they might help you in being supportive with something like that. So let's go back through the five things as I begin to wrap things up because I'm going to end this in about seven minutes. So again, you can always go back to this is take a moment to write down what you want in a role. And this could change throughout your career as you're matriculating through different positions. So think about what you want in a role. Where do you want to be in the L and D sector? Are you going to be in education, corporate government, nonprofit, freelance ed, tech, LXD? Where are you going to be?

(36:29):

You're going to be in a marketing position that's related to instructional designer. You're going to be in a customer service position. You're just thinking about all those different things and then doing your research, doing your research, figuring out in that sector that you decide to be in, what's good about these roles, what's not good about these roles? And then developing those relationships, reaching out to people who work there, seeing what they've experienced, seeing what the best advice they could give, not overwhelming them, not expecting them to review your resume, not expecting them to review your portfolio. Sending that. People do that to me all the time. I don't have time. I wish I did. And those things aren't free. That takes time to review portfolios and I'm not portfolios and resumes and I'm not an expert and some other people aren't an expert. So again, a real heavy emphasis on that genuine connection. So we had what do you want in a role? Where do you want to be in the sectors resources, I mean research, relationships. And then I just offered you that curated list of resources. Please bookmark that. Like I said, I just updated today, updated frequently.

(37:46):

Ebony has a question when transitioning into l and d, do you suggest we invest in certificates after we research and determine what sector we want to go in? I would say if you start reading roles and they require a certificate, then yes, if you're reading roles where they substitute experience for certificates and degrees, then you might not need to invest in that. So it depends on where you were applying to. One of the industry standard certificates is the A TD certificate. It's known, very well known. So if that's something where you're thinking about instructional design, you can get that a TD certificate that's recognized across the industry. So I would say before you even get a certificate, if you do the LinkedIn learning courses, great that on your profile. But if the roles don't require that, I don't think it's something that you need to invest in unless they're like, this is required. Certificate in instructional design, master's in instructional technology are related field. So reading those job descriptions is really going to inform you about what credentials you might need in order to apply for the role or be successful in the role. Great question, Ebony.

(39:04):

So final thoughts before I wrap things up? We're going to do two more sessions. The next session's going to be about things you shouldn't do when you're starting your career transition. And then the final session is going to be about professional materials. So look for those in the next couple of weeks. I'll put out the events planning if you want more information about starting your career transition and learning development. I've been an instructional designer, I've been an instructional technologist. I teach in higher ed, I've worked in higher ed, I've worked in corporate, I've done some freelance work. So I have a variety of different experiences in my repertoire that I'm happy to share and happy to give advice about. But also to reach out to other people, see what they're doing. And just remember that when you get something like a rejection or you've applied to so many roles and you haven't landed anything yet, something else is out there for you.

(40:01):

There have been so many instructional design positions since post covid. I've never seen so many instructional design positions at Panda Express, Sephora, Lowe's, home Depot, I mean you name it. Their team, they have a training and development team, they have an L and D team and they need instructional designers, they need lxd, they need accessibility people. And it's just grown so vastly over the past four years. So keep searching for that role, make your own way with a role maybe in freelance. And please don't give up. Please don't give up. We have a very supportive community out there and if you need to pick me up, just let me know. And like I said, it's not something that's going to happen overnight and avoid those people that say it's a guarantee because it's not a guarantee. You're just going to get some knowledge and maybe some resources.

(40:55):

It's definitely not a guarantee. If you need me to refer you to some academies or you need me to refer you to some workshops or some people that can help, I can do that. But I don't want you think about before you invest. Alright, well thanks everyone for attending the live today. I hope you found it very useful. I'm going to put this out as a podcast episode as well for Ed up Ed Tech. So if you don't follow us, it's ed up ed tech.com. And my co-host is Nadia Johnson. She's wonderful. She's a fellow instructional designer so you can reach out to her as well. So this will be released as a podcast episode, but I so appreciate what you're in this space. We need great instructional designers, lxd, accessibility people, curriculum developers. We need this space for learning. We need to make learning as a whole better and more meaningful for those of us who are trying to upskill, trying to just make the world a better place. So thank you so much and I hope you enjoyed your lunch and have a great rest of your day. Bye.