148: It's Not Just One Thing - Tips for Navigating the L&D Job Market with Our Very Own Holly Owens

Holly Owens (00:00.842)
Hi everyone, getting started a little bit early just to make sure everything is working and recording properly, making sure that it's all going out to LinkedIn and it's all going out to YouTube and everything, making sure the lives are working.

Holly Owens (00:24.778)
Just doing a little quick test.

Holly Owens (00:37.002)
Right.

Holly Owens (00:41.044)
testing, testing.

Holly Owens (00:45.679)
Awesome.

great.

Holly Owens (00:52.266)
All right, let's get into it. It's 1159. I know some people might be joining a little bit late, but I am excited to welcome you to It's Not Just One Thing, talking about navigating the learning and development job market. It's really a topic that I am drawn to. I post a lot about it on LinkedIn. And I know many of you are followers out there of me. And, you know, I'm sharing my August tips this month about

how to jump into the L &D job market as it's very competitive at this time, not over saturated, competitive. So I'm happy that you are here. I'm happy that you are listening in wherever you're at, whether that is LinkedIn, whether that is YouTube. And I'm going to welcome you to ask any questions that you may have. You know, as far as, you know, anything to do with the job market.

what you want to talk about. So we're going to get right into it. This session is going to be released as a podcast episode as well. So if you do miss the live session, please go ahead and listen out on our podcast at up L and D and you'll be able to access this quote unquote recording following the session. So I'm going to get right into it.

One of the first things that I want to talk about in this session, and I am going to leave about the last 10 to 15 minutes to answer any questions that you may have or things that you're just very curious about that I may not address in this session. And then we can go into other stuff if we have more time. But the first thing that I want to talk about is my experience and where I come from. I'm not just here.

as someone who hasn't been in the job market before or is in the job market now and not knowing what's going on, I am here. I have over 17 years experience in higher education and corporate instructional design. I started my career out as a high school teacher, so I have experience in K to 12 as well. I've been working for Amazon Pharmacy for the past just a little bit over two years.

Holly Owens (03:10.182)
So most of my career has been in higher education, instructional design, instructional technology. And then besides that, I freelance on the side, I host a podcast at up L and D and also do some other things on the side as well, you know, do some partnering webinars with iSpring and other vendors to get the word out about what instructional design is. So let's dive into the L and D job market. Let's talk a little bit about

what's happening. I feel like there's a lot of information out there that needs some clarity as far as like, is the job market over saturated? Who's applying? You know, there's a lot of transitioning teachers. There's a lot of people coming out of the corporate space that maybe want to jump into education. So when we're thinking about these things, it's probably there's a lot of noise and I want you to, you know, simplify what you read and what you hear.

I would say that the job market is not saturated. Prior to the COVID outbreak in 2020, I was finding one instructional designer, instructional technologist role maybe like once a month. And now daily, you're getting hits on different roles like instructional designer, e -learning developer, instructional technologist, curriculum writer. Those are coming out.

almost daily, like those roles are available. So one of the things, one of the common misconceptions is that this market is saturated. It is not. There's a job out there for you that you can find and maybe it's not your your last step, but it might be a stepping stone to what you want to do next and you get some experience. So I would definitely say don't count yourself out when it comes to if the job market is saturated because it's not.

It is competitive. There's a difference between competition and saturation. Competition is when there's a lot of people applying for one role that do have the qualifications and the expectations that are necessary to fulfill the position. Saturation is really like when just there's no room for anybody else. There's no space for anybody else. Here there is. Here in the L L&D job market there is.

Holly Owens (05:33.044)
Let me jump into, so I think one of the things that I do job postings, Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays, I haven't been doing it in August because I've been sharing my tips. But one of the things that I like to do and like to point out to people is that all the job postings that I do have listed, they have the job title, they have what level it is, entry, mid or senior VP or

higher leadership, and they also have the salary. So there's salary transparency listed in the rules as well. And that's definitely something I'm gonna recommend that you look for. And with some of the laws coming out in different states like New York and Colorado, salary transparency is gonna be something that's required. So we're probably gonna see that as a trend across the spectrum where people are going to have to, if they're posting a job, they're gonna have to disclose the salary ranges.

That way on our end as the job seeker will have a better idea of what the range is and if we can sustain our lifestyle and still save for retirement, all those different things. So that's definitely one trend that I'm seeing happening more and more when I do those job postings, like a lot more jobs are sharing the salary transparency. So you can just automatically say that doesn't fit my budget and then move on to the next thing that you that you're looking at.

I get a lot of questions in the last, the next topic I want to talk about is I get a lot of questions in my LinkedIn inbox about how do you stand out? I think it's important to understand that it's not just one thing. And that's definitely what I've titled my book is it's not just one thing you can do to stand out. It's a multitude of different things. And I think various other instructional designers and e -learning developers across the industry,

who have been in this game a while can agree with me because doing one thing to stand out in instructional design in a field that continuously evolves and continuously changes, may be like you do that one thing where it's this wonderful e -learning that you've designed and you designed it like five years ago, it might not be relevant anymore and the tools might have changed and evolved. So you wanna be sure that you're doing a variety of different things. One thing I can say,

Holly Owens (07:58.09)
And then I have worked with people in the past where this has been the case is people adding in. And this is one piece of advice I give to everybody I talk to in my 15 minute chats is adding some sort of video or audio, multi multimedia to your resume. The resume is a very static document. And I realize we add in like our portfolio, you have your LinkedIn stuff. But one of the things I can say to add is to add a video about yourself.

bringing in both that personal and professional information about you, not sharing anything too personal, but just saying how it all fits together. So if I was to record a video about myself, I would definitely talk about how I love golfing and I live in Myrtle Beach. I love dogs, you know, and bring that all into like, I absolutely love teaching other people how to do things. I like, you know, learning all the time because golf is definitely a learning sport.

So bringing in those aspects of you, it really makes that static document come alive. So it's important for you to maybe that's one thing you could possibly do to stand out a little bit more along with your resume and your portfolio pieces that you are incorporating into the resume as well. So I get that in my inbox a lot. What can I do to stand out? So it's really, it's not just one thing. If you've been following my August tips, it's a lot of different things and even

the 31 days of August aren't going to allow me enough days to tell you what to do to stand out. But the book that I am writing currently I have two chapters. It really is, like I said, a competitive job market and you have to be ready and able bodied to deal with what's going to happen in the market.

Again, it's not just one thing, but that is one piece where I've had clients in the past who have added in that video and they've landed initial interviews or even gotten through to first and second round interviews because they had that video. It kind of it did make them, quote unquote, stand out a bit. The other thing that I want to talk about is I think there's a common misconception that if you were

Holly Owens (10:16.988)
an educator in the classroom that you were automatically qualified to be an instructional designer, yes and no. And I'm saying this as a former educator. It is really different from the classroom. So people who are out there in the world, they're putting in information maybe on their LinkedIn profile or they are...

saying that they are an instructional designer when you don't necessarily have that experience. doesn't look good for you. And I've had clients in the past before when I've done some conversations about resumes and things where people have put, because they put educator and instructional designer. Don't list that unless you've actually put in the time and effort and done maybe volunteer work.

or you've had a contract role or a part -time role where you've actually done some instructional design work because educator doesn't equivalent to instructional design. And that's okay. You do have a lot of different skills. And I did post this on one of my posts since I think it was day eight or nine, or maybe it was 10 and 11. I don't remember. Where you have transferable skills. And what I mean by transferable skills is lesson planning is like planning out a project.

So there's project management. So you can translate that into project management for instructional design. So think about one of the things is write down all the skills that you have and you're like, well, this is what it is in education, but what might it look like in the corporate space or what might it look like in higher education as an instructional designer? Take your knowledge and your experience of pedagogy, your experience with learners.

your experience designing different types of in -person or hybrid activities with your learners and think about how all that can be applied to instructional design. I'll give you another example. Another example for educators, things that you do that relate to instructional design is curriculum development. So you're not necessarily in the instructional design role going to be the person developing the content. You're not going to be the SME, but you understand how that process works and what information

Holly Owens (12:35.655)
you're going to need from the SME in order to develop content, to make it engaging, to make it impactful to learners. So your understanding of curriculum development is a great tool for you to use in order to get information out of the SMEs and stakeholders that you're going to work with. So those are just two examples of those transferable skills. And I'm not saying that, you know, as an educator, you shouldn't honor your experience because I tell people that all the time.

If you've worked in education four years, if you worked in 10 years, 30 years, you need to honor that experience. And when you're looking for different roles, you need to go for those mid roles. Even if you don't necessarily have the experience, I feel like as an educator, you should be looking, not taking a step back and going into entry level, maybe doing some contract work to get that experience on your resume.

but really looking and seeing how all that will fit with the experience that you have in education. So I'm not saying you're never gonna be an instructional designer. Just don't like it when I see people list instructional designer on their LinkedIn profiles or their resumes and they've never ever ever done instructional design type work. It's a very different environment. While there are some overlaps, it's a completely different environment. So the other thing that I wanna talk about here and...

Maybe I get a lot of people asking me about how to navigate the space of social networking. I think that's one of the things that is a challenge. I consider myself an introverted extrovert. But one of the things that I decided to do in 2020 before COVID happened is I told myself, you know what?

I'm not really using LinkedIn for its value and what it can offer me as a professional. So I decided to start doing 15 minute conversations with people out on LinkedIn world and just talking about their experiences, just talking about what they wanted to do, where they're currently at in their roles and then in their life.

Holly Owens (14:51.018)
you know, like, where are you at in your career? What do you do? Is there something where we can connect? Maybe we can collaborate on something. And through those 15 minute conversations, I've probably done over close to a thousand of those at this point, I started making connections and authentic connections with people. Like, I know that these people that I've had 15 minute conversations with and maybe further conversations with, I know who they are. Like, I might know something more personal about them. I know where they're at professionally. I know what they needed.

I've watched a lot of these people, you know, the evolution of where they were to where they are now and changing different roles and jumping in maybe into higher ed or jumping into the corporate space. But one of the things you have to do with networking is it's not something that where you can just send somebody a connection request and say, I looked at your profile, we have some common connections, let's connect. And then it just ends there. That's not very authentic.

so if you want to be really good at networking, you need to talk to people, whether that's through the messaging, whether that's through a 10, 15 minute conversation, whether that's through like, you know, doing a LinkedIn, sending the voice stuff. Lots of people do that. I haven't got into that yet, but I feel like the authenticity for networking is severely lacking and immediately telling people, I get this too. these are just things not to do.

immediately getting a LinkedIn message where somebody says, can you please review my resume or can you please review my portfolio without honoring and knowing who the other person is and just automatically assuming that they're they're available there to help you, which this community is very welcoming. But I don't want you to make the assumption that you can just email these these experts and these quote unquote influencers and say, please review my resume.

There's a lot of different opportunities out there paid for and unpaid for where you can have people look at your resume or help with your professional materials. Would love to get to know you better is usually what I say to people when that happens. I would love to have a conversation with you about your goals. I really feel like at that point you're putting it out into the universe so that if you want to be successful, you need to create those authentic connections via LinkedIn.

Holly Owens (17:16.218)
or other platforms, maybe that's Facebook for you. I find that the LinkedIn ecosystem really creates this opportunity for us professionals to network. And it would be great if you knew something about the person's profile, you actually looked at the person's profile before you connected with them, so you can at least say that you've looked over. I accept a lot of connection requests and I never really...

You know, I'll say, I'm happy to connect with you, but I never really get, you know, a response from the person. So having connections for you in this market isn't going to equivalent to necessarily having and landing a role. You have to know people considering the competitiveness so that people will say, Hey, Holly, I know you do blink blink and Blake, and there's a contract opportunity at said company. I think you would be great for, can I set you up or, you know, make an introduction with the recruiter?

or make an introduction with somebody that works there. That's how things are gonna work if this is a competitive market. There's often been times when applying, my clients are applying to different roles and they have developed an authentic connection with somebody internally and that person recommends them or refers them to the role. So one of the things that makes your resume, again, stand out, that makes you,

more visible in the interview process. Like you're going to get a phone screen because somebody said, I know Holly and she can do this, this and this. And I really think you need to interview her or have a phone screen with her and talk about the role because she has this experience. So that will put you a step above those people who are just using LinkedIn, easy apply or going out and indeed and applying to everything. I think it's really important that you take into consideration.

what you're applying to as well. One of the things I posted today, I'm just talking about different things that I've experienced in this live, is when people apply to, I see it almost every week, at least once a week or at least twice a week, is when people are out on LinkedIn and they say, I've applied to over 250 roles. I haven't landed one interview.

Holly Owens (19:42.09)
one phone screen, what am I doing wrong? What you're doing wrong is you're not narrowing down your search and finding your niche area or finding the area where exactly where you want to work in and finding the area where you want to work that you're going to enjoy. Simply applying to everything you see is like buying 800 ,000 lottery tickets and expecting you to have more chances of winning than the person that picks one ticket.

It's not going to happen. It's something that you really need to think about. And I talked about this at the beginning of August and my August tips. And if you haven't gone and checked out my tips, use the hashtag Holly's all get a UGTIPS tips and find that hashtag. And you're going to see all the tips I've already done for almost halfway through the month at this point is not applying to everything. And

Another thing about when you do do something like that is you are setting yourself up for an enormous amount of rejection, an enormous amount of ghosting. know, there probably won't be any feedback for you. It's just going to be like constant, like email rejection from an ATS system. So I wouldn't recommend applying to everything and just everything you see. Really find and read what works for you.

what you think you want to do in a role. It's interesting to see the different, to read the different types of job descriptions. And that's another thing too, besides applying to everything, are you really reading every job description and every role you're applying for before you apply for it? Because there's a lot of things that aren't in like that little overview. I've seen different things where it says the roles are remote, but you have to live in a certain location.

I've seen things where it says that the role requires you to travel. It's remote, but you have to travel like 50 % or 75%. So you really have to read the information about each role and make sure it's a good fit for you. And part of that too is knowing yourself. What you want, what you need out of a role. It's very important that you figure out, well, what do I need? Yeah, those, those ATS,

Holly Owens (22:07.398)
systems, Melissa, they are, they can be a nightmare. And anytime I see if one of my clients is applying for a role and they tell me they're like, there's this little thing that they're seeing, like you can click that don't put it me in the ATS, don't put it in the ATS. I don't know if it does it or not, but to me, like as an end user, if I don't need to go through an ATS system, please don't put me in the ATS system because

It's not something that is error proof. It's not something that where it's going to, because you have 25 years of experience in instructional design, it might spit you out anyways, because you had one word wrong or you didn't have a certain word in your resume. So I'm not a huge fan of those. And I would say that if you can opt out of that, hopefully you can click that link and, you know, people, it won't put you in the ATS system.

That's a whole nother webinar, these ATS systems. I'm so glad some of you are out on the live. I see some people have joined, which is fantastic. Thank you, Lisa, Jose, Cindy, Melissa. Thank you for your comments so far. I really appreciate it. I'm kind of just talking through all the different things I've experienced so far in this job market. And I'm not necessarily...

in the job market, but I'm very recent to changing from higher education to corporate instructional design and talking and working with different clients. I can see from a 30 ,000 foot view and a very narrow view what is happening to people. And I really just wanted to come on here and say, give some advice about my experiences and other people's experiences that I've worked with of what's happening so that you can feel more prepared.

and confident to dive into the job market. So I really appreciate those who are out there commenting on the LinkedIn Live. It's always fun to see what people are thinking. All right, let's talk a little bit about skills. feel like another comment, and this probably should have been the title of the webinar, probably should have been common misconceptions when searching for a job in LAD. But one of the things is people think that

Holly Owens (24:28.366)
If you know things, if you are a tech guru and you know things like Articulate, iSpring, know, I don't know, project management tools, you are like, you are an advanced user, you know, all the technology and you're like, I can put this thing together in five minutes. Technology really comes secondary to the skills that you have and the soft skills that you have as an instructional designer.

you are not only working in technology. You're not only working with technology when you are an instructional designer. In fact, you are dealing with people and personalities and SMEs and stakeholders a lot more than you were dealing with technologies. So technology is secondary. It's not going to get you the role. It's going to get you more visibility. Yes, if you are a more advanced user or you have things in your portfolio that you designed, say an iSpring.

but it's definitely not going to land you the role. Unless you're doing something sort of like IT professional, it's not instructional design. Instructional design, somebody asked me a question recently, they said, tell me, and this was a coffee chat conversation, tell me what an instructional designer does. And you know that's a loaded question for me. And I was like,

We're project managers, we're a therapist, we help people figure out, like we ask a lot of questions, we're inquisitive, we're teachers and educators, we have a love for the learning sciences and cognitive, psychological things. We are people who move projects along, we lead things, we're leaders.

I just couldn't stop talking about all the different things instructional designers do and all the different hats that they wear. and none of that, didn't, I mentioned probably second to last, the technical piece, like we're very technical in terms of the aspects of developing things. Like if we're using Storyline or if we're using Ice -Pring to develop an e -learning or if we're using Canva to do an infographic, I could say we're, we're, technical and we're the people that

Holly Owens (26:46.588)
jump right into using the technology, we're not afraid of it, but everything that came before that, like project management, communication, dealing with SMEs and stakeholders, it was all people oriented. It was all like, you need to have empathy for where people are at. It wasn't necessarily, it wasn't the techie stuff. So I just want people to be cognizant of that, that it's not necessarily the technology that's going to get you the role. You need to make sure.

that you are somebody who can talk to people and have difficult conversations and be able to navigate different personalities. So if you were like a teacher in a classroom, this is another transferable skill for you because there's so many personalities and so many different levels that people are at in learning. Same with your SME's and stakeholders. They don't necessarily understand learning and the design process and what we're trying to implement. What's the bigger picture?

you know, our goal at the end of the day is the learner and that they are able to have takeaways from our experience, whatever that may be, whether that's a job aid or a simulation, they need to be able to perform their job in the corporate space or if they're in education, faculty needs to be able to design their courses, interact with students and be able to navigate the different systems that they use. So just remember.

Again, the theme of this is not just one thing. It's really not just one thing. And don't use technology as like your initial like I need to up skill in this. Any good company, any good company, this is my theory, and I'm going to stick to this and I'll die on this hill. Any good company will allow you the opportunity to up skill. So one of the things you should do if you're doing an initial phone screen or you're in the group interview,

is ask them about their onboarding process and how that all works. How many, because you're gonna come into a company and they could be using different technologies than you used in a previous role, or they could be using brand, brand new stuff that you've never, ever, ever encountered before. Like there's some LMSs out there that I've never encountered before and I'm like, I've never heard of this. So as far as the onboarding process goes, you need to get clarity around how that all works and how much time you have to upskill.

Holly Owens (29:06.362)
Obviously, you're going to have time, you're going to get projects and you're going to work in things where you're going to maybe have to do some set aside some time for professional development yourself. But looking into what technologies that they do use and knowing your capacity there is important when you're applying for these roles. But also on the other side of too, it's the organization or corporations responsibility to upskill you. You can't they're looking for the unicorn. I always say this. They're looking for the unicorn that doesn't exist.

So if you have 60 to 70 percent of the qualifications for the role apply for it all too often I've seen people who are definitely qualified for roles they won't apply for it through because they're like I'm just proficient in Learning management systems or I'm just this no you're not just this you have this this and this as well This is what you bring to the table. So be confident in your skills and your abilities Along with you know knowing what you're going to have to do

as far as upskilling in the role. So be sure that you don't count yourself out if you don't necessarily know the technology.

Holly Owens (30:16.042)
All right, let me, I'm gonna take a little pause, cause it's about 12 .30. Yes, I definitely, so one of the things Jillian asked, and I'm gonna put, let me put this link in the chat. I've compared and I've done a whole webinar before, or a whole talk about corporate versus education instructional design. So I'm gonna share a link to that infographic that I use.

And just so you know that this is not everything. These are just like the top level things that I have come up with. So let me reply to Jillian here and give you this. And it's going to be for everybody to see as well. This is a link to the Canva infographic that I designed when comparing corporate to education instructional design. Really, when you look at it, it's just different audiences. It's a different

It's a different setting, different modalities. So take a look at that infographic and let me know if you have any questions. Yeah, I went from higher ed to corporate and I can definitely say two things about the differences. Number one, higher education is notoriously slower to integrate innovation into their process.

and what they do because there's so many different hoops and things that you have to jump through and approvals you have to get. Whereas in corporate, you are able to innovate basically on spot. At least that's what I've experienced at Amazon. You can innovate right away. So thinking about that along with the fact that in higher education, your audience is really, and in education, your audience is really different compared to your audience in the corporate space.

In education, higher education, you could be dealing with some younger learners. And then in the corporate space, you could be dealing, you're dealing with adult learners. So there's some pedagogy, androgogy over here, but there's mostly androgogy, adult learning theory over in the corporate space. So those are just some things that I would, those are two top of mind for me right off the bat. Okay, Deborah asks, do you need a master's degree or certificate?

Holly Owens (32:39.282)
It really depends on where you go. If you, one of the things, my recommendations and advice for you is to read through those job descriptions and do research. I think corporate really doesn't honor the master's or certificate. They might honor their certificate a little bit more. This is just my perception. Honor the certificate higher than the master's degree. They want more of your experience.

And a master's degree doesn't necessarily incorporate, equivalent that you know the real world and how corporate works. Because master's is academia. So they know you know how the education and the scholarly space works. But what I would say is that look for a master's degree program that provides you with that real world experience or maybe like an internship or an externship so that you can say that you've had the experience. One of the big certificates that's really

that has a lot of weight on the market is the ATD certificate for instructional design. I don't get any royalties for saying that, just so you know. I would also say to some of the academies that I really like. So if you're looking to be in higher education, I love Luke Hopson's Instructional Design Institute. He's running a cohort now.

Tim Slades, eLearning Designers Academy. He's starting his final cohort now. So if you're looking to get more corporate eLearning development, I would recommend him. And then Robin Sargent's Idle Courses Academy, if you're really looking to shift into the corporate space of instructional design and do a lot of upscaling when it comes to the tools and really have a platform that scaffolds things for you if you're jumping into this space. So there's no royalties.

This is all like things I've researched and I've talked to these people. I've seen their products. They're wonderful. So would say it's Deborah, it really depends on where you go as far as the space. it's in corporate or academia, academia is obviously going to honor, you know, the more credentials you have, the better from my experience. So it really depends on where you want to go.

Holly Owens (34:51.819)
All right, let's see. Tess said, Holly, great topic. There's an L &D market is so competitive right now. She's trying to find where she belongs. Not sure I'm demonstrating the potential players how serious I am about taking on a full -time role again. Any advice? So I would, that's a difficult question actually. That's, you know, if you've been doing some like freelance work or you've had a job,

where you've had a gap in your employment and you're trying to come back into this industry, I would definitely take every experience you've had as a contractor or a part -time role and put that in the front of your resume, because that shows that you've still had skills and experience in the market. You haven't been completely shifted out of it. And I think...

One of the things you need to mention too is in your initial, if you get a phone screen is that you definitely are interested in shifting to full time. And that might be even something you mentioned in maybe that video that I suggested to you and also in your professional summary. Like you can highlight that you are full time is what you're going after. You're not doing part time work anymore.

You've taken your combination of part -time work and the years of that, and you want to put it into all that you've learned into something full -time, and that you really want more of that stability of a full -time role. So putting it different places, putting it out into the universe. When you do LinkedIn Easy Apply, you can send a message to the manager. I would put that in there. If you can send a message to anybody on the hiring team, just tell them that you're serious about that, but make that prevalent in your resume and make that prevalent when you're applying to the roles.

Holly Owens (36:40.904)
Hi, Nadia. Let's see if we have any more questions that I miss. Yeah, Deborah, I see your point about when the technology is required. It is required. I mean, it's a part of what we do and it's only shifting and changing. It's not something that's gonna go away. But I don't want people to think that...

Technology is the only thing. That's my point. Let me go to one of the things I wanted to share. And I said I was gonna be sharing great resources with you is I continue to add and curate. I don't know if you all have seen this out on my page. Like I said, this particular live is gonna be shared as a podcast episode.

is this curated ID resources. And in this resources that I just in this bit .ly, what you're gonna see is you're gonna see a list of, last update in July, I need to add a couple things for August, is you're gonna see recommendations for those who are transitioning into instructional design. And this can be across the board, instructional design, instructional technology, online learning. So these are things that I have vetted that I have looked through.

that I think are useful to people, both free and paid for stuff, and then any other stuff, there's tons of free stuff. One of the things that I said recently in the August tips is that exhaust the free resources. All too often we jump in and we think for, because we paid for it, it's going to guarantee that we're gonna get something done. That is not true. Let me give you an example.

You how many times I've paid for Weight Watchers and I've lost weight and then I gained it back and then I pay for it again? It's not a guarantee that if you pay for it, that it's going to land you a job or it's going to make you an instructional designer. That is up to you. That is not up to the pay for opportunity. They are gonna provide you with the support, yes, but if it says guarantee, it's not guaranteed. That is up to you.

Holly Owens (39:01.266)
if you were taking the time to upscale yourself, if you're taking the time to look over those free resources before you actually invest in something. I've had a numerous people come to me and say, I invested in blank course, I invested in blank academy and I figured out that's not what I wanna do, but they had already spent their money. You could have figured that out through doing different research about it. And if you are thinking about investing,

in some sort of academy or program, talk to the person who runs it. Talk to the people who've been in it. See what they say. Get, you know, we're not going to go out to a restaurant that has like a two out of five. We're going to read the reviews. We're to see what happened, but we're not going to go if it's two out of five on Yelp or whatever. Google, we're not going to do that as humans. So go talk to people before you invest. It's so important.

because this is money you could be putting into maybe if you wanted to upscale yourself in like Articulator, you wanted to, you know, maybe buy like a project management tool for yourself. So please, before you invest, exhaust the free resources and really figure out where you wanna go.

So I put that link in the chat and I'm happy to chat with you about if you have other questions regarding signing up for those academies and things because I definitely have ones that are my favorites, like I mentioned them before. And I know there's people out there who are not doing what they're say they're going to be doing and I don't want that for you.

I don't want that for you. This is why I take the time to do my job postings. This is why I take the time to do these August tips and curate these resources because I myself have experienced some of these things and I want you to not make the same mistakes that I have. That's why I wanna write this book. That's why I wanna share everything I can with you so that you can make the best decision possible because this is not only your career, this impacts other things externally.

Holly Owens (41:08.466)
including your family, including your work -life balance. Work is not the only thing, but you want to do what's best for you. So that's why I share so many different resources and my honest and open feedback about some of the ones that I would highly recommend and not investing until you're actually ready to go down that path, because it's going to be some work.

Another tip I wanna share with you about the L &D job market, and then I'm gonna open it up for some more questions, is people often make looking for a job a full -time role. And I am a person, I completely understand what you're doing. I completely empathize with the situation. You need income, you need to support your family, you need to pay your bills. I am right there with you. I am not making millions, I'm not making thousands, even anything.

But one of the things that I want you to consider before you start applying to everything, before you start thinking about things you wanna invest in is what you need as a person, what you need as a human. And the fact that salaries aren't listed, I don't, if I'm looking for a contract role, I do not apply for contract roles, do not have a salary listed.

That is one thing I do not do. Like, why is it a big secret? It shouldn't be a secret. What are you trying to hide? And the other thing, I don't know where I was going with this, but I'm gonna go down the salary route at this point. Do not low ball yourself. All too often in our careers, we think we have to take the first thing that lands in our laps, but really consider is that type of role and the expectations

that the responsibilities, does that match the salary? Does that match your experience and what you're expecting? Because at this point, like if you're in the career, you're two decades in or you're five years in, what is your minimum? And seeing different roles out there in LinkedIn world and other spaces where they want, there's an entry level role and they want three to five years experience, I don't know how that's possible, but they're gonna pay you $45 ,000 a year and then they list.

Holly Owens (43:30.717)
this grander list of like all these responsibilities and other duties as a sign. Does this mean more than that? Don't do that to yourself because you're just gonna end up very unhappy. I would say it is advisable for you to, you can take a contract role and do some things where you are just getting some experience for like a temporary amount of time, but please, please, please don't low ball yourself.

I have done that so often in my career. I have not negotiated. have not, and I'm mad at myself at this point because I should be like any elder millennial further along in saving from my retirement than I actually am. And it's because I think I need the job, but really the job needs us. Like the work's not gonna get done unless us humans exist along with that partnership with AI, but the job's not gonna get done without us.

So don't low ball yourself, but don't, you know, kind of stay balanced. Don't try to like overdo it on the other side of that either. Think about your experience, your skills, the transferable skills and things like that. So that's just one thing I want to caution people against. Cause I, I know people, clients that I've worked with who have taken roles and they, they low ball themselves because they just wanted the experience and they were very unhappy and it took them a very long time to get out of that role into a different role.

So that's the other thing too.

Holly Owens (45:02.376)
Let's see, what else did I have on this list? rejections. All right, so here it is. mean, like the rejection emails, and I hear this from people all the time, they come like instantaneously, like as soon as you submit the application or within hours of the next day, or it's weeks and weeks and weeks weeks in advance and you feel like you're getting ghosted, just know that it's not about you. It's not about you.

It's the company, it's what they have set up, their system, their process. And if you get an instantaneous rejection, you probably don't wanna work there anyways, because a human is not reviewing those resumes. So they're not taking into consideration your, and not honoring your experiences. Also too for the ghosting, let it go, let it go. I've had recruiters like say, I want you to work this contract role, and they took my information and they just.

I was just a quota, meeting a quota for them, let it go, like Elsa. I mean, it's not something that you can do anything about. But one thing I would say is if you get through certain rounds, like the third or fourth round, you're like, getting into the final round and then you do get, you don't get the role, I would ask for feedback because at this point, you know who the committee is and you know who the leadership is. And it doesn't hurt.

anything to ask for feedback as to why. Because all too often what we don't realize is that once we, if we get through those many, many rounds and we get rejected, guess what? Majority of the time they have an internal candidate. They just are checking the boxes and quote unquote using you to say that they did a market. They went out into the market and found people and that the person internally fits the role better.

So that actually makes me feel better, because it's just like, it's not my qualifications or anything. They already had this person set up and ready to go for the role. That actually happened to me at Amazon the first time I applied. I'm not going to lie. And I was devastated. But I would say it's not about you. Have your moment. Get mad, get angry, cry about it, and then move on to the next thing. Because like I said, there's tons of jobs out here.

Holly Owens (47:22.686)
For people, it's not saturated. You can find somewhere else you want to be and somebody that's going to somewhere where they're going to honor your experiences. So please don't get upset except by that.

Holly Owens (47:37.921)
It's important to take care of yourself mentally. Last tip before I open it up for questions is I would say, and this is where I was going earlier, don't make searching for a job a full -time role. You're gonna get burnt out. You're gonna get angry. You're gonna be mad at the world. You're gonna be mad at yourself. You're gonna allow imposter syndrome to manifest inside of you. Take a Pomodoro 25 minutes a day or two.

depending on how, you know, if you want to do it in the morning or at night to search for roles or do something related to job searching, whether that's updating your portfolio, updating your resume, you know, reaching out to people, having conversations 25 minutes a day. So how much is that in about five days or seven days? Roughly, that's what let's say 20. I'm not good at math. So let's say it's like six hours ish a week.

Somebody do the math for me. I hate math. I know this is simple math too. There, you got exposure to one of my weaknesses. It's math. I don't know why, but I didn't have any good math teachers coming through school.

Holly Owens (48:53.204)
So it's roughly like three -ish, four -ish hours. that's a lot of time. And over the course of a month, that's a lot of time you're putting into investing in jobs. Now, I'm not saying you can't spend a whole day looking for jobs and applying or half a day. That's completely up to you. But in order to prevent that burnout, in order to make sure that you honor yourself and your skills and you don't start seeing getting rejection after rejection, you're like, I'm just...

I'm just sitting here, I'm going through and it just feels like everything's just falling on me. It's hitting me in the head. I don't understand. Like, why don't I qualify? Like, why aren't they, why aren't they emailing me? Why aren't they interviewing me? Just know that, like I said, it's not you. They might have an internal candidate, but don't waste your time and your energy, like putting it all into this. Because one of the things I like to tell myself and I tell other people is that you have a life to live.

You don't live to work, you work to live. I don't live to work. love these things I do, I live for these things. Like podcasting, helping other people, putting together lists, sharing tips. Like I live for those things and I'm not getting paid for those. But you don't, your job is not the only thing that exists in your life. So just be cognizant of that.

and keep that in the back of your mind as you're searching for some of these roles and you're getting rejection. Think about your family. Think about like, you know, the opportunity and time you might have with them because maybe you're in between jobs or maybe you're in between contracts. You're going to figure it out as far as the money is concerned. I'm not giving myself a pep talk to right now. You're going to figure it out. You've gotten this far, right? In life, you've gotten this far. So please don't spend your time.

making yourself feel bad or letting imposter syndrome manifest inside of you because you've spent five days a week, a 40 hour job, 40 hour work week, just applying the roles and trying different things. Take time out for you. Go walk on the beach, go play golf, go, I don't know, go read one of your favorite books, listen to a podcast, mine preferably. Right, Nadia? So.

Holly Owens (51:12.17)
That's just a little bit of inspirational talk for me and being in this industry for almost 20 years. Don't do that to yourself. It's not okay and you need to fill your own cup. All right, last 10 minutes. I wanna open up for more questions and wanna see if anybody has any other questions that I can answer.

Holly Owens (51:39.274)
for you. if you want to type something in the chat out on LinkedIn, I'm happy to answer those questions.

Holly Owens (51:50.43)
Like I said, this particular episode, I'm probably going to cut it off at this point. This particular recording is going to be released as an episode out and Nadia is in here too. Omaya Nadia's podcast at up L and D. So you're going to be able to view this again. You're going to be able to listen to it again. And there'll be show notes and everything that we've discussed here. So please go ahead and make sure you subscribe to our show and you can listen to it anywhere. Spotify, Apple podcasts, we're out on the major ones.

We've been doing this for a long time and Nadia and I have both been in the market quite a bit. really you're getting, you're getting advice and information from experts who are experts at job searching. I'm so glad to see people joining from, wow. Somebody joined from Africa. That's awesome.

All right, I'm not seeing any questions pop up in the chat.

Let me see if I missed anything.

Holly Owens (52:57.904)
hi, Nicole. I'm so glad you're here.

I enjoy listening to you too, Nicole. Absolutely. I'm so glad people got to tune in.

All right, I'll give it a couple more minutes to see if anybody has any other questions. One of the things I will say is right now I've kind of paused on some of my 15 minute chats. I'm kind of working on some projects with full -time role and some side projects. So don't have a, and I'm teaching. I don't have a lot of extra time at this point, but I will open those up again, probably in the fall. So if you do want to chat with me, I do have what's, I have a top mate.

but I've kind of shut that down a little bit just because I'm not super available and I have to be available to some of these other projects and make them a priority right now. But you're welcome. I encourage you to follow me on LinkedIn. I encourage you you want to send me a message and just say, hey, thanks for the webinar. I love your curated resources. Here's something you should add to it, something along those lines. Please reach out, please follow.

We desperately need to have a conversation. Maybe I can find some time, but at this point, I'm probably not gonna be doing other things until some of these other projects wrap up, but I will definitely be doing some more webinars and things. Let me just check one more time.

Holly Owens (54:26.142)
The name of our podcast is EdUp L &D. We used to be EdUp EdTech, but now we've shifted over to EdUp Learning and Development. It's wonderful. We can definitely cover more information under that umbrella. Here's the link to, it's still EdUp EdTech. I haven't bought the new domain, but EdUp L &D and Nadia and I host that. bring on guests. We're going to start having, Nadia and I are just going to have conversations about this kind of stuff.

And you'll be able to listen to those along with different guests who are in the field and different tech companies and things like that. So I definitely encourage you to listen on in. And our network, just so you know, is a vast network at the Edip experience and it's approaching like 600, 700 ,000 downloads. So we have a lot of people, we have a big audience and 80 % of our...

audiences domestic in the United States and the other 20 % is international. So we're an international podcast. I love saying that.

Holly Owens (55:32.412)
All right, let's see if there's any other questions.

I recently, so this is from Chris, I recently completed a certificate in ID and was coached in interview skills that focus only on instructional design. This feels like a stretch to me coming from a dual career in hospitality and education. It frankly hurts my brain to always convert all of my experiences and stories to ID language. My last interview I abandoned that but didn't get a call back for round three. I wouldn't say you need to suck it up. I'd say you need to honor those experiences and it really depends on the company and what your.

what you're looking for. can completely understand how you would think that shifting your language is gonna be one of the things you're gonna have to do anyways when you're talking to SMEs and stakeholders when you get into an instructional design position. But I wouldn't say, you know, connect back to your hospitality stuff and education. You don't have to convert everything to instructional design language. So I wouldn't wanna work for a company that's like all...

instructional design -y, I want them to honor, like, you know, working in pharmacy, like, I've learned so much about how a pharmacy works and I can speak to different things on how business operations works, the things I didn't think I'd learn, but I would say honor those experiences, Chris, and talk about it. If you don't get a call back, then that company's probably not for you. You know, that's probably just not something that's gonna work. Yeah, I understand. It does take a lot of work and I'm not saying you have to shift all of your language.

but you have to know where those transferable skills are and you have to know where you can, you have to know where you can fit in and what you bring to the table.

Holly Owens (57:19.048)
All right, last call for questions.

Holly Owens (57:27.946)
All right, well thank you so much. I really appreciate you listening to me chat about my love for the learning and development job market and sharing my experiences with you is I am so grateful to be able to do that. And I thank you for asking questions, coming in with your advice, your perspective, welcome all those experiences.

And I hope that you found today valuable and it sets you on a path where you're going to start to feel more confident about searching for roles, but also to where it helps you recognize maybe where you need to take a step back from searching for roles. And also honoring your experiences and all the things that you bring to the table because everyone's experience is unique. And we all bring that perspective with us when we come into a new role. And remember it's not just one thing. Bye.

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