108: (Audio) EdTech Evolution - Chelsea Averitt on Navigating Remote Roles & Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Holly Owens (00:00:01):

I do have a clap. Okay. We are definitely live and I do have a little clap there. They gave you a little soundboard, which is kind of cool. So I don't know if you can hear that. Hi everyone. We are live and we are so excited because tonight we are talking about jobs and we have Chelsea Averitt with us who is, I just call you a job curator extraordinaire because that's what you do and you run Skip Jobs, which I found about, I think it's been over a year now and we chatted and we're excited to get into it. Oh, the clapping is funny story. Now

Chelsea Averitt  (00:00:46):

I have

Holly Owens (00:00:48):

To figure out how to stop it. Yeah, absolutely. So Chelsea, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do with Skip, and then obviously I have tons of questions to ask you and we want to save some time at the end for the audience as well. Excellent.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:01:06):

Well, thank you so much for having me. I always enjoy chatting with you and I am really thrilled to be here and to have so many people listening on to be excited about what the current state of the EdTech job market is. So I'm Chelsea and I love the job title, job curator extraordinaire, so I'm not going to try to tap that and I may even change my LinkedIn to say that because it's a perfect way of describing what I love to do with Skip, which is share jobs and share jobs that are meaningful. They do really cool things where we're actually helping students transform their lives or educators transform their teaching practices and they're going to pay well and give you work-life balance. So that sense of not just finding jobs but finding really, really great jobs. The curation part, something I love. Yeah,

Holly Owens (00:01:57):

And I love the fact that I know you're going to talk about this, you do this with a salary in mind and salary transparency is very big to people nowadays and there's a lot of laws and things surrounding that in certain states. So I'm glad that you have a site that does all that. And I've watched your site evolve from just posting jobs and now there's categories and now there's coaching and all these different things that you're doing. I know we have a lot of educators or transition teachers that are in the audience, especially they listen to the podcast. Your episode is one of the top episodes of our show. So what are the top three, if you had to pick the top three remote roles that educators are transitioning into that offer, that salary minimum, if you want to talk about that.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:02:50):

Right, definitely. So I may not be able to keep it quite to three, but I think there are some major, major categories. Customer success continues to be the top job Skip that I see people moving into or Ed Skip, that's my new branding is Ed Skip. So customer success, I'm seeing it really consistently, it's a great fit for educators, whether they're working directly with teachers or working more with admin to create programming. It's a really good fit. Also seeing a lot of instructional design. Of course your field instructional design is, it does require that additional upskilling, but it's something that teachers do really well and they enjoy that creative aspect in continuing to develop curriculum. And what I'm seeing really as an interesting pattern is that the jobs are remaining pretty steady and consistent throughout the couple of years I've been doing this. I'm still seeing sales.

(00:03:46):

Initially sales was meant to be an entry level into EdTech and now I think people are really saying, wait a second, I think I would enjoy sales or I wouldn't enjoy sales. So it's still very popular, but one of the things that I'm really seeing now is people interested in program management and program management. I mean educators are program managers. That is literally what we do is we develop programming for our students. And so really being able to recognize that that is what we do and then apply for those jobs confidently. That's the big trend that I'm seeing and I'm definitely seeing people move into that. Both the people I'm working with individually in coaching and in my larger LinkedIn audience.

Holly Owens (00:04:25):

So

Chelsea Averitt  (00:04:27):

Training, I can't not say training, that one's also important. So there's so many great options. There have so many skills they transfer so well that I can't narrow it down to three, but customer success, program management, instructional design, let's call it learning and development. So it's instructional design training. Yes, there you go.

Holly Owens (00:04:47):

Yeah, program management is definitely a huge part of l and d and as an instructional designer, especially working in higher education, I just thought we were just creating courses and that is not the case. That is totally not the case. And you know that you said that upskilling of instructional designers and what we have to do, but I love the fact that the jobs that you're posting are really a wide variety and you post jobs from companies with a mission that you're aligned with that skips aligned with and it's just so like it's nonprofit, it's companies we've heard of maybe in the vendor space, but it's a wide array and I just love that that's what you do.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:05:33):

Yeah, I love it too because I mean every day I find a new company and I'm like, there's somebody working on solving that problem for our communities and our schools. And it's really nice because we just don't have the capacity to solve everything in our own communities and having resources that we can pull in, particularly in area. I live in a rural area, so our resources are limited. So it's really

Holly Owens (00:05:54):

Great

Chelsea Averitt  (00:05:55):

To have this expansion

Holly Owens (00:05:57):

Available. Absolutely, absolutely. And gosh, and sometimes it's so hard to, when you're thinking about jobs and I'm going to join in, combine some questions and

Chelsea Averitt  (00:06:14):

Maybe

Holly Owens (00:06:15):

Go off script, once my mind starts going, then

Chelsea Averitt  (00:06:18):

It doesn't stop.

Holly Owens (00:06:20):

So one of the things I really want to know for educators, the tools and resources, while you provide the job listings and you work with these companies to get the jobs on your site, so what are some of the tools and resources that you provide that can specifically aid educators who are looking to transition into these fields that you just mentioned and me beyond? Because obviously there's more than just those few that you mentioned.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:06:42):

So there's the job board that I do. I've also recently restarted my newsletter. I let it fall by the way aside. But one of the things I loved about doing the newsletter

Holly Owens (00:06:51):

You did, I didn't even notice. I still get the stuff. That's funny. You say you think you're letting stuff fall by the wayside, but I'm like, oh my gosh, Chelsea is just on top of this. She's sending another newsletter. There's more information. It didn't fall by the wayside. It still exists. Go sign up for it.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:07:10):

Yes, it does exist. And one of the things that I've always loved doing is doing these deep dives into a particular field. So I did student success, which is basically the implementation role of customer success. I did that last month and this month I'm diving into program management and I'm really able to say, what are these questions I'm getting in my audience? How can I answer them for everyone and not just for the person I'm talking to at the moment. These are questions I get all the time in. So I restarted the newsletter doing the deep dives and that's exciting. But part of what I'm doing in the newsletter is also I'm doing skills analysis. So I've launched this tool where I'm asking questions and they're based on all these job descriptions. I, I mean I literally have hundreds of bullet points from companies and I have hundreds of bullet points from educators. And I'm saying, how do these align? Because that's what I've always done really well when I do the coaching is I'm able to say, oh, you've got those three tasks. They fall into this bucket. It's implementation or it's training, what have you. And so now what I'm doing is actually starting to say, can I automate that process? Can

Holly Owens (00:08:20):

I

Chelsea Averitt  (00:08:20):

Ask questions that will help people discover this for themselves so that they can quickly answer a few questions and really identify, this is what I need in my resume, this is what I need to take out of my resume. And then long-term really hoping to be able to add this is how I can indicate accomplishments and metrics so that what you're really doing is getting something that's very tailored and customize to people in our field moving into the kinds of jobs that are typical. And so the skills analysis is it's coming up as a new product launch. Once I really get my question bank going, I'm going to be implementing that as part of a coaching product. So instead of having to do all that work yourself, I'll have done the backend and you can actually just, but it's accurate.

Holly Owens (00:09:09):

Yes. And we've talked about this before on the show. This reminds me of a conversation we previously had. When you go to these other job sites and you're typing an instructional designer and they're sending you something like graphic design or that's not even, that's pretty close, but that's not what an instructional designer is. Or if they're sending you something like, oh my gosh, I don't know, I have to save some of the funny ones so I can share them with you Masonry or something. I don't know how the algorithms think I want to be a data entry specialist or something along those lines. It's just so crazy to me. So it sounds like the product that you're developing and that's about to come out is something that's really personalized and really is going to know what you need and find that niche. That's one of the things I tell people when we have these conversations is find your niche where you want to be, program management, project management, instructional design, where do you want to be?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:10:05):

Yes, definitely. And that's the piece where I'm still working on the product development is trying to figure out, there's so many different avenues you can use this information for. You can use it to tailor a job description or tailor your resume for a particular job description to figure out career clarity in the first place or to create that sort of master resume so you don't have to do as much work. So there's a lot of opportunities there. And I'd love your point about the job boards. If I could integrate that into the job board, then yes, you could have personalized job posts that came to you because yes, the ones that stand out to me is you Google customer success. Well, we throw in a LinkedIn, you Google customer success on LinkedIn and you get product manager jobs. And I'm like, those are two very different skills that are required for that. One of them is something that educators can do and the other is something that you need three to five years of product experience to do and it's really frustrating that they lump them together. But that's what happens when you're using these big algorithms rather than curated databases. You've got to start with something that really has the right information from the beginning.

Holly Owens (00:11:16):

Absolutely. So all of your jobs that you post on your site are remote work. So working from home, and I want to know something before I actually dive into this question. Do you differentiate between working from home to some people working from home? You have to be in a certain location. Sometimes they'll list out a state and remote work Remote to me means anywhere working from home means you might have to be in a certain location. Is that how you differentiate it or am I way off basis there?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:11:46):

I feel like that's something I've definitely heard before. I'm not sure how many, I've seen people work from home remote and I'm like, are those different things, are they not?

Holly Owens (00:11:58):

It's confusing. I saw your poll

Chelsea Averitt  (00:12:00):

Too

Holly Owens (00:12:01):

About this is why I'm bringing this up. I saw that poll on LinkedIn. I'm like, it got me thinking Chelsea, what do we call it? I know

Chelsea Averitt  (00:12:11):

There's no great term for it. I think what I'm separating out right now is remote jobs are jobs that are available anywhere in the US and I do stick with us because once you get into international hiring, there are a lot of complications and big potential problems for compliance and things like that. So I stick with remote is us anywhere nationally. So the jobs you see on the main page of the job board are all going to be that. And then I have a small page for, I think I renamed it location specific jobs, location specific remote jobs was what I came up with. And the idea there is that

Holly Owens (00:12:50):

Some

Chelsea Averitt  (00:12:51):

Jobs want you to be in a particular state because you're going to have to travel frequently regionally. So you need to be in Georgia because you're servicing clients who are in Georgia and maybe across the line in Florida too. But some states also the hiring laws are just so challenging and the tax laws, if you've ever lived in two states for different parts of the year, you may have paid double taxes like I did when I moved from Georgia to Wisconsin. And companies have that same problem except that they can be personally sued as well, the HR managers. So they can often really say, wait a second, I need to make sure that I'm comfortable with these state laws. I can't do all 50 states, but I have 10 state laws. They're similar. I can hire in those 10 states. So a lot of times it just depends on the capacity of a hiring manager. And so I call those location specific remote jobs. So sometimes a lot of location to sometimes they're not.

Holly Owens (00:13:48):

So for people like educators who are used to being in the classroom every day and seeing their learners or seeing their colleagues,

Chelsea Averitt  (00:13:56):

What

Holly Owens (00:13:57):

Are some of the challenges that they might face when they get to a remote work setting? I see a lot of posts when people do transition and it's like a relief, but then sometimes there are those consequences to remote work. You don't get to interact with people every day in the sense that you're in person and the human thing is missing. So how do you think that, how can they overcome these things? What are the challenges and how can they overcome them?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:14:27):

I think with remote work you have to be a lot more proactive about building those relationships and really saying, Hey, can we chat? Or even having a particular reason to say, I'd love to know about this project you're working on, or I think I might need to, our projects might align. Can we talk about traditionally how these roles have been connected to each other or ways that we can support each other more? So having a really concrete ask to say let's connect and doing that strategically throughout the organization. So making sure you're connecting regularly with your supervisors, making sure that you're connecting regularly with these teams that are sort of adjacent to the work you do and even your own team, your own team, you probably already have that structure in place. So really consciously thinking about places where you don't have it. And the New York Times just did a post on what we know about the dangers of remote work.

(00:15:22):

And one of the interesting things that they said was that women in general are finding it harder to get feedback if this was specifically about engineers, but they were early career female engineers and because there wasn't often a really easy way to ask follow-up questions, they were falling behind. And I think that's something educators we don't really worry about as much because we're used to working independently and figuring out answers to questions. But I think it does really highlight that need to make sure that what you are doing is visible and making sure that the challenges that you're overcoming are visible so that it's your work product is very much your accomplishments in your metrics are very much in the mindsets of the people who are not just they're making decisions about raises, about permission. So people who are really in charge of your career, the people who they did hire you, but now you're really thinking about what's my five-year plan? How do I actually make sure that I am going to be able to accomplish that and I'm not going to be in the same job in five years unless I want to be.

Holly Owens (00:16:32):

Yeah, absolutely. And I would say too with remote work like you're saying, to make it a purposeful to develop those relationships, it might take a little bit longer and I noticed that even how long have I been remote work since so almost three years now. It does take a little bit longer, but one of the great things that we do in pharmacy and we meet quarterly, so we have offsites and things so that we can be with our teams and that really rejuvenates us and that has really helped to develop those relationships and that cohesion within the team. I know not everybody has afforded that opportunity, but I would say if it's possible, it's interesting because some people with remote work, you don't realize it like, oh my gosh, Nadia, my co-host, she lives in Columbia, South Carolina, I'm in Myrtle Beach. It's literally a two hour drive and we've never met each other in person, but we're going to because we live close to each other and just if you can and a coworker go meet up with them at a coffee shop, it's really fun. Somebody else lives in Myrtle Beach that found me on LinkedIn and we go meet up at a coffee shop. It's just crazy. So there are some things like you're saying that we can do to really kind of mitigate those challenges with remote work and make us feel less like we're isolated and more like we are a team and there's tons of different departments within larger organizations that we're working for.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:18:04):

And I think that's also one place where EdTech is a little bit unique in the remote environment is that so many of the EdTech companies have always been remote first. Their audiences are national, so they're often going to need people who are in particular locations, travel being one of them, but also because you need people who have expertise and well, what's the difference between Texas standards and Maine standards? So just the culture of the school systems. So having that remote first environment I think means that a lot of these companies have these practices much more standard than your corporation that went remote because of covid and is now trying to figure out what to do. Or those CEOs who did you see that stat? 63% of

Holly Owens (00:18:45):

CEOs

Chelsea Averitt  (00:18:47):

Believe that everyone will be back to remote work five days a week in two years.

Holly Owens (00:18:53):

Why did they say that? No, I didn't see that.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:18:55):

Stats. They want it. Yeah. Well, I think there's another place where that visibility, what you're actually doing becomes important is there's this fear that people are just sitting home doing whatever they want instead of actually doing the job, but being able to really say, Hey, here is what I'm doing. Here's what I'm not doing is really important I think to make sure that companies, if they're not accustomed to this remote work that really these bosses can feel comfortable, but it's going to be interesting. There's a lot of c e o pushback and there's a lot of worker pushback. And so we're going to see a lot of changes over the next few years and that hybrid, one thing we aren't talking about is hybrid workforces, which kind of that in-person talking about in the remote, we lose the ability to work where we live, we have to uproot ourselves, but we do gain some of that benefit of actually having the in-person connections. So I think

Holly Owens (00:19:52):

There's a lot

Chelsea Averitt  (00:19:52):

To figure out with it, but EdTech companies are used to figuring out, because a lot of them, so many of them were remote first before the pandemic.

Holly Owens (00:20:00):

Absolutely. And I know a lot of my friends who worked in the ed tech industry, they were remote, but they would travel quite a bit, especially if they were in sales and they were doing some sort of training activities, they would have to travel. And that's still the case. But at Amazon I speak a little bit about Amazon, the R T o, it's been across the news as a return to office and having to go in three days a week. I mean

(00:20:27):

It's good, but not everybody can do it in a virtual location in South Carolina, but there's no close office. It's closest, it's probably Charleston, but it's not even related to pharmacy and none of my teammates are there. We're all over the United States, so you have to be very tactful about how you're deciding to do this. And I'm fortunate enough that we get to meet quarterly, but I know there's a lot of people who are just like, I can't afford to drive two hours one way to go into an office three days a week. It's just too much

Chelsea Averitt  (00:21:03):

And there's not enough of a benefit. I was talking to someone just the other day, they're applying, it's a local main company in Portland, our nonprofit, and they're looking for a development director. They've been looking for five months and they're like, this can all be done remotely except they occasionally need to come in the office. And I'm like, how do you have that worded? And he is like, oh, occasionally you need to come into the office. And I'm like, if you set that up with, you have to come into the office once a month or once a quarter, you're going to get a lot more takers for that job because yes,

Holly Owens (00:21:33):

There's exactly, there's

Chelsea Averitt  (00:21:35):

Something that's practical and there's something that is just too open-ended to really be able to make decisions about your life and the kind of work balance you want to have.

Holly Owens (00:21:44):

Yeah, I was just going to say that the work-life balance with remote work is so much better than it was when I had to go in the office every single day. I felt really rushed on the weekends and sometimes I still do, depending upon the workload of getting done adult responsibilities. And I know educators and people who are transitioning roles can definitely relate to this going from in-person to remote and you're like,

Chelsea Averitt  (00:22:05):

Oh,

Holly Owens (00:22:06):

I have time to go throw a load of laundry or I can go clean the kitchen. It's like take a little mental health breaker, go walk around the block. It's really nice. It's really advantageous, especially for mental health and things like that.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:22:20):

Yeah, that's what I did before our call. I walked down a couple of blocks, took a look at the really beautiful sunset over the ocean and I walked back and I was like, ah, now I'm ready to talk.

Holly Owens (00:22:31):

That's awesome. All right, so one of the things that educators and other people who are transitioning ask about a lot, I get a lot of LinkedIn messages, I'm sure you do too. Thinking about the skills that we have and what makes them suitable candidates for these remote roles. So what are some of those things you can identify?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:22:53):

Definitely I wrote them down because one of the things that I think happens is that we are like, we have so many skills and for starters, identifying which are the most important ones is a challenge. But also the ones that I tried to focus on are ones that I often see people omit. So that's where these are certainly not all of our skills or even they're important, but not necessarily the most important. The ones that I regularly don't see are things like project and program management. So while that's its own career, it's also something that we do in any job that we do, and it's that ability to take all of these moving pieces and put them in this coherent organized system to develop curriculum programs. All of that work we do, it has these time management, organizational and coherence building activities going on. Then we have data analysis.

(00:23:47):

This is something I rarely see in educator skills and we're using data on a daily basis, probably an hourly basis. And I think that ability that educators have to collect a lot of data to identify what's meaningful in the data, and then more importantly to be able to use the data. So we're actually taking that data and differentiating curriculum on a regular basis for our students. And we're doing it informally, informally. So qualitatively quantitatively, it's a lot of data and education and we don't take full advantage of that when we talk about that. Then there's also, that doesn't even get us to reporting. We're used to reporting it to stakeholders, a parents and communicating what that data means and what's behind it and what you do and don't need to worry about in terms of your student's progress. The other one I went back and forth about what to call it.

(00:24:39):

So I think normally we would call it collaboration. As I was writing down the kinds of skills that I was thinking about, I was like, this isn't collaboration. The skills I'm thinking about are the ability to facilitate. We underestimate the ability to facilitate, but I'm sure you've had those meetings, you've led that, everyone's like, that was the best meeting ever. And you're like, that's just what I normally do As teachers, we're used to managing conversations, making sure people are heard, asking follow-up questions that actually get you to dig into, what do you mean? And we're also used to managing difficult conversations. So when those

Holly Owens (00:25:14):

Start to go

Chelsea Averitt  (00:25:15):

Awry or there are personalities involved, those are things that we can manage pretty effortlessly. And the reason I don't think we think about that as collaboration because it happens in committees and it happens in groups, but I think what it really is is leadership. And I think that as educators, we need to actually name that we are leaders in what we do. So program, project management, data analysis and leadership.

Holly Owens (00:25:43):

All I totally agree with, absolutely those skills are necessary. I'm going to go a little bit off topic. I just thought of something, and I know you've heard this too. So

(00:25:57):

The thing that's the transitioning teachers on Facebook, the hashtag and some of that got some negativity around it. I didn't really engage in it. I just saw some things that were happening. And the thing too about coming across job postings that say that teachers basically they're telling them they're not professionals. And that's the thing I've seen. This is not the case. This is not the case. Former educators sitting right here, we are all professionals and we are all, I feel like teachers have a lot of imposter syndrome when it comes to transitioning roles. Do you have any advice there to overcome those things? Sometimes I think we're climbing a higher mountain than some other people who've been in the business world previously or have more experience. We're kind of competing with those people who have that roles.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:26:49):

Yeah, it was interesting. I was kind of thinking about just in general, what I would talk about, imposter syndrome was a topic that came up in a couple of different things I was thinking about because when I started Skip, I started Skip partially because all these companies, so these are companies like I'll just name them Paper varsity tutors. They pay their professionals 60, $80,000 a year. They pay their teachers and their tutors at the time, 10 to $12 an hour. I think now they're up to 15 to 20. And they distinguish between that based on the audience, are you working with adults or are you working with kids? And I think that's really something as a society we should not undervalue. And I think that really, it's interesting because you do see that language a lot of times like professional and then tutoring and teaching, that's still professional. I mean, we're doing those same skills. The only difference is the audience and the pay. So I think yes, that imposter syndrome is so much a part of how as a society we view educators and also as women. I mean, I am in a business women's group and we all gave, we pitched our business and the feedback we got was you're underselling yourselves. You are not communicating it.

Holly Owens (00:28:06):

That is true. I do that all the time. We do that all the time. I know we do. It's bad. It's so

Chelsea Averitt  (00:28:16):

Bad. We got to get past that just, yeah, it's underselling. We're not used to, we know what makes us great, but we're not used to putting it on paper. And so I think some of that is just a habit. And I've been thinking about this a lot and I'm actually, when I worked with my coaching people lately, I've been saying, you're underselling yourself because I'm like, the word really resonates. I think imposter syndrome feels scary, underselling though. Or like, oh, wait, I can actually see that. So what I've been doing with people is saying, all right, you're underselling yourself. Here are the actual skills that you have. When you say, all right, well, I'm just teaching kids, what are you doing? You're facilitating, you're asking questions. Again, that's a leadership role. You're

Holly Owens (00:28:59):

Training. Yeah,

Chelsea Averitt  (00:29:00):

You're training, you're coaching or mentoring depending on what role you're in. So really saying, instead of focusing on the audience, step back and say, well, what is the actual tasks that I'm doing? What do those tasks require? What kinds of skills do they require? And how great am I at those skills? Let me tell you about that.

Holly Owens (00:29:21):

Yeah, absolutely. And Marnie was just saying in the chat that they get really intimidated by the experience impo with all the business lingo.

(00:29:33):

I know at these bigger, if you're definitely in the corporate space, there's so many acronyms, there's so many different things. It's like learning a different language sometimes when you transition rules, and that's okay that the learning curve is high. I feel like, and what you're saying, Chelsea, what I feel like we're saying is that confidence is everything to defeat that imposter syndrome. And you should definitely be confident in the skills that you have. And I also feel like too, when you say I was a teacher for 26 years, that's 26 years of industry experience. To me, that's not anything. You're not starting over. You're not starting at zero. You might be starting at zero in terms of learning something new, but you have experience. You have experience there. Yes.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:30:18):

Yeah, I agree. And I think that's one reason why educators, when they get hired, they tend to get promoted really quickly is because we have all of those skills. And those skills, they may not show up in the resume, but if we think about this, ed, skip is an entire process. Once you get into the job and you're really able to demonstrate what you can do, people give you more tasks and more responsibility. And I look at people's career history and the teaching 26 years, and they move into ed tech and every eight to 12 months they're being promoted. They're

Holly Owens (00:30:54):

Going quick, they're going quick. In the industry, it's one to two years, and they're going fairly quick because they're organized, they know what the expectations are, they're going to outperform their counterparts just because of the way educators think or other professionals. So it's good to see that that sort of respect is happening and that the recognition is there for them because I feel like that helps you again, develop that confidence and just feel like you feel worthy teaching. It's a whole bunch of responsibility being laid on. You have to responsibility being laid on. You're like, I don't know how much more I can take. But in the industry, when you're doing things that are great, people are going to recognize you. And especially if you're in good teams and you have good managers and leaders, it's wonderful. It's a fabulous feeling. I'm saying that from experience.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:31:46):

Well, and I hear so many educators who are like, I went to my first meeting and I was trying to stay quiet because I'm the new person. I'm just listening, absorbing. And somebody asked me a question, what do I think? And I answered it and they were like, that's a great idea, let's do it. And someone's like, I haven't to listen to like that at a long, long time. And I think yes, if you are at a place where they're actually valuing your experience and that listening can be so empowering.

Holly Owens (00:32:15):

So are there, if you're looking at the job postings that you're doing and the things that you're seeing, like the backgrounds, are there any particular backgrounds in education, any subject matters that are particularly in demand for certain remote roles that you've come across?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:32:35):

Yeah, so it's interesting. The Department of Education, of course, funds a lot of programming. And so a lot of the ed tech funding comes from the D O E. And lately that's been federal funding. So as that's starting to fade out, fizzle out, what have you, the Department of Education is starting to give more guidelines about what you should be looking for when you fund education and when districts specifically are purchasing ed tech products. And so there's actually some interesting industry information there. So what they're really talking about is focusing on the problems that we know we have. Students are falling behind in math and literacy, particularly as a result of the pandemic. So those are places where you're going to see a lot of job postings, particularly in early literacy. So we can set strong foundations for students moving forward. I've also definitely seen equity issues coming in. So anyone who has experience with Title one schools, which is a lot of the people I work with, sure. Title one schools, that's an in demand skillset. Seems to be the wrong term. I'm sure there's a better term there. But I would definitely say that

Holly Owens (00:33:45):

Awareness of what that is and what that encompasses, that environment, that ecosystem, because we know it's different than the schools that have it. All

Chelsea Averitt  (00:33:55):

Right.

Holly Owens (00:33:56):

That's a simplified version of it.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:33:58):

Yes. The other trend that I'm seeing, and this is one, it's too new for me to really have too much to say about it, but I'm starting to see special education consultants a lot more frequently and then starting to see special education teachers, and not necessarily in terms of covid, we just need virtual learning, but ed tech companies that are really starting to say special education is a large segment of our student population. Can we leverage that to make money? It's the kind of crass way of saying it, but I think there's also a sense of this is a place where there's a lot of burdensome regulation and it's very challenging for educators. Are there ways that we can start to make that experience and some of the process, particularly that paperwork process, can we make that easier for educators? So I'm starting to see a lot more special education managers even in the last month or so. So I think special education is probably going to pop soon, but it's still, again, it's a new trend, but I'm definitely seeing it much more frequently than I was seeing it. And I'm starting to see special education as subject matter experts the same way as math and literacy are.

Holly Owens (00:35:11):

Yeah, I was going to say have a special educator on your ed tech team to give you recommendations about accessibility.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:35:18):

That's gold. Yeah, so on your instructional screen team.

Holly Owens (00:35:22):

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I'm really glad to hear that that's booming and that's up and coming for educators, even though we're not as educators, we're not labeled special education teachers, we're still very aware of what are going through IEPs, five oh fours, those different kinds of things. And those definitely can transition into skills and knowledge for different roles.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:35:47):

I definitely think special educators on some level really should be looking at data jobs, data analyst jobs. I'm not seeing a lot of people move into it, a lot of upskilling there, but I think that they're the ones who are using data the most. Not that any teacher doesn't, but special educators have a certain level of data requirements. So the rest of us,

Holly Owens (00:36:08):

Absolutely. So I mean, we've talked about, we've been dancing around Skip and talking all about it. I posted links in the chat on LinkedIn live and in Riverside so that people can go check it out. How

Chelsea Averitt  (00:36:21):

Are you have a conversation and managing the chat.

Holly Owens (00:36:26):

I want to get everybody in the spotlight. I want you to answer all the questions. I want them to hear from you. This is what I have to do in this hour that I have with you. We have to get everybody involved. So I'm doing all the things and I'm totally engaged at the same time. I don't know, it's something people say multitasking is a miss sometimes I don't know what my brain does. It's able to do it, so

Chelsea Averitt  (00:36:48):

I'm

Holly Owens (00:36:49):

Grateful. So can you tell us, give us the origin story a bit more about how you started Skip and what drove you to basically, I kind of know had you on the show, but what drove you to bridge this gap for especially educators?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:37:06):

Yeah, so I talked earlier just about how frustrated I was with those companies that were essentially gaslighting educators. And not only were they paying really, really poor wages, like 10 to 12 bucks an hour, but they were saying that the wages were competitive every single time I saw that $12 an hour and the competitive wages, I was like, wait, wait a second. I just saw a tutoring job that pays 20 or 35. Actually there were 35, some of 'em were 50 instructional coaching jobs are paying that. And I'm like, wait a second. How is this competitive? It's only competitive with very few jobs. And so it just made me very frustrated. I don't know if we can curse on this. So I'll just say it made me very frustrated and you can

Holly Owens (00:37:52):

Curse. I'll just put us explicit content. It's fine. But yeah, I understand that feeling. I get that. That's rough. That's rough.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:38:02):

And so I initially just started sharing these part-time jobs and then I was like, wait a second. So somebody who's working, say 10 hours a week tutoring after working a 40 hour work week, and then they still need to do all the other things as a teacher, we need to do with grading and prepping because a 40 hour work week isn't enough. I was like, this doesn't sound like fun.

(00:38:22):

And the more I was hearing from educators, they were like, actually, you know what I'd like, it's just a full-time job that lets me do what I love and pays me for it and gives me time off. And so that's when I started saying, wait a second. There are part-time jobs like that, but there are also full-time jobs like that. And then I started sharing jobs and it really snowballed from there. And I think the coaching piece came in just because I have a lot of experience interviewing people. I spent eight years on doing that for my local city. And we hire about a hundred people or total. And some of

Holly Owens (00:38:57):

Those people,

Chelsea Averitt  (00:38:58):

Sometimes people leave so often.

Holly Owens (00:39:01):

We do a lot of, yeah, there's turnover. Yeah,

Chelsea Averitt  (00:39:02):

There's turnover particularly in city government. And so it was the sort of thing that I was like, wait a second. I have a skillset that is really useful. And as I just started offering advice, I was like, this is really something I enjoy doing. I really do. Having people find something that they find really meaningful and that finds them meaningful back. And as I've been doing it longer and longer, I've also, I mean it's really clear that EdTech is not going away. It's expanding. We can do it responsibly as a society or irresponsibly as a society, but we're doing it no matter what. And so I would rather have people who have taught in education be in those roles. So I feel like this is a place where we really do need to make sure that educators are moving into ed tech and that we're not just hiring people who have always worked in industry because then they're going to be focused on industry metrics and not on all of those student centered metrics and educator centered metrics, which really make a difference.

(00:40:10):

And that if you don't understand, you're going to have a really hard time talking to an educator about your product or helping them to really use it effectively. So yeah, it's evolved over time to really be like, this is something that we need as a society and we need to be thinking about very carefully. So that's really skip. And then also, honestly, I just really love data. And so being able to say, how can I analyze all this data? And there's so much data here and it's unstructured. I'm like, how do we structure this data and come to meaningful conclusions? So it's actually a lot of fun.

Holly Owens (00:40:50):

Yeah, I can only imagine. I wish I would've had your data mind. I do have a data-driven mind, but I just love seeing the little pie graphs and stuff and somebody else doing it for me. And I do like doing pivot tables and things at work. Those are fun to create and manipulate. But anyways, that's the conversation for another day.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:41:07):

Yeah, because pivot tables, I don't understand.

Holly Owens (00:41:10):

Oh no. I honestly thought it was more complex than what it really is. And one of my coworkers taught me how to use it. Hi Dan, thank you for teaching me pivot tables and it's awesome. I feel so good about, so using that data and that metrics to really inform decisions or what the latest trends and stuff are in the job market. And I'm really glad, and I'll say this, that instructional design and ed tech and all this stuff has been put on the map because of covid. Because before people had no idea what the heck I was talking about when I said I'm an instructional designer. So they're like, you design websites, you fix computers. No,

(00:42:04):

I'm not a technician. I don't, I'm not geeks on call. I don't come to your house. Explain that. But now an instructional designer up there, ed tech up there, it's recognized and so many different roles. I mean finding every so often an instructional design role even in corporate was hard finding higher ed, even harder needle on the haystack. But now plethora when you're posting your jobs. And then I do my postings and sometimes I include your postings when LinkedIn doesn't have good stuff for the other ones, they're a little bit off. I do like eight 16 a week. That was unheard of pre covid.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:42:50):

That's really interesting. And now I'm starting to see that we talked about this the last time, but that instructional design and now we're getting the management structure over the instructional design. So it's becoming a

Holly Owens (00:43:00):

Fully pledge department.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:43:01):

And is it learning and development still? Is it something different?

Holly Owens (00:43:06):

That's a conversation I always have. I talk to my, is instructional design a part of l and d? What is l and d? What's the differences? That's a conversation I'm going to definitely need to have with more of an expert. I consider myself part of learning and development because of where I work and my title, but who knows? L and D encompasses a lot of different, it's an umbrella term for a lot of different roles in a lot of different departments,

Chelsea Averitt  (00:43:29):

Right? Yeah. Because HR is often, that's the one where I see a lot of overlap with instructional design, learning development, hr, I

Holly Owens (00:43:36):

Saw a job. Yeah, I saw a job that was, it said instructional design manager, manager. It was in hr, it said with an HR focus. I had never seen that before. I had never seen

Chelsea Averitt  (00:43:51):

That before. I like the sales ones. That's also really, really popular. You need the sales background and the instructional design background. So career paths.

Holly Owens (00:43:59):

Yeah, it's really, really cool to see how it's evolving. So are there any additional trainings, opportunities for upskilling that you recommend to make this transition more smooth for people? I know you have some offerings on your site. You said you do some coaching, but are there any other things that you can recommend to people?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:44:20):

So that's an interesting question because I was thinking about it. I mean for instructional design, obviously because there are some really technical skills that you need to learn, but we're starting to see a lot more customer success trainings and for trainings that are much more, let me step back for a second. So for instructional design, I think you definitely need upskill, but this is another place where I was thinking about that imposter syndrome that we were talking about. And how often is it that the reason we're looking at some of these courses for some of these jobs that educators move into really regularly, how often are we saying, oh, I need this training because I don't have the right skills?

(00:45:03):

I'm not really sure. I think sometimes people do need to upskill, but I think sometimes we also just need to say, wait a second, I need to step back and identify my skills. And sometimes I think that it's a matter of working on a different scale in your existing school. So for instance, if you're doing a lot of program project management in your classroom, can you do that on your department or in your school? If you're doing it at your school level, can you do it on your district level? So really saying, do I need something more or can I actually use the systems I'm already working in and just do what I'm doing a little bit differently in order to pitch myself more competitively? And so I think there are two ways that I think educators should probably start before they consider the upskilling conversation.

(00:45:55):

One is definitely figuring out what are some good data tracking systems because we don't necessarily, we track a lot of data, but we don't necessarily track metrics that are useful for the job search. We track metrics that are useful for our students. So really saying, what are the metrics I need to know this year? Let me actually track those for myself this year. And then also saying, what are some ways that I can take what I'm already doing and expand? I've been doing a bunch of trainings. Why don't I do a training series? I need to know some of the metrics about training. Let me start actually doing a survey before and after and tracking that information. So I think a lot of times it's less about upskilling and it's a lot more about just documentation and using opportunities that you already have in your own community.

(00:46:47):

And that's another thing, volunteering. I think if people feel like I don't quite have enough skills where my HR skills come from volunteer work, being a board president, I got a lot of project performance improvement plans with executives and also a lot of intervening skills That all came from volunteering. I didn't get paid for any of that. I really should have probably for the number of hours I was putting in on some of those. But I think that there are opportunities for us to serve our schools and communities that will be more rewarding for us than upskilling, which is not to say that the programs are bad or not, I don't really know. And I think that's the question that I have is do we need them?

Holly Owens (00:47:32):

Yeah, I get a question a lot too. Do I need to get another degree? The degree is not going to get you the role. Just like knowing all the technologies is not going to get you the role. It takes a lot more than just having the, I mean, here are all my degrees. I intentionally put, they're not even hung up. They're all back. Here's my very expensive pieces of paper and I'm very proud of them. I work really hard. But nothing can replace real world application and experience in a role. And like you're saying, volunteering or freelance quick roles that give you that six to 12 months experience in a certain position. Find those things or find a good mentor who can teach you. And I love the programs that incorporate the internship or externship into their program. And it's not just at the end, it's throughout the experience so that the person is growing not only in the academic space and as a learner, they're also growing as a professional.

(00:48:32):

At the same time, if I had to give recommendations to higher education, every program, it doesn't matter what it is, needs some sort of internship, some sort of reor experience. I mean, if you think about the different subjects, everybody needs to have that. Whether you're a chemist, a biologist, instructional design, you're going into business management, you really need that real world experience because that's what's happening. That's where you get to see all the things evolving, the different changes that are being made in the industry, the things that are specific to your industry. So I mean, those types of things are invaluable to me.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:49:06):

I agree. And I think that really reinforces too. It's not just the need to get that whole cycle going. It's really important to be tracking your impact across that cycle and being able to quantify what your value add is. Because then you can talk about that. Then you can put that bullet point in your resume and that's why you put your education last. Because what's important is how you applied your education. Not that

Holly Owens (00:49:34):

Exactly. I know. What is the R R I on this? Tons of student loan debt, right?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:49:39):

Yeah.

Holly Owens (00:49:41):

I don't know about everybody else, but it is for me, right? October hurts. October hurts. It hurts the budget, this one. But yeah, absolutely. The real reward experiences is like nothing else. And I recently had an intern who came from an institution that did what I just said, had the internship throughout the program, and then she got a role at a former, where she graduated from as an undergrad, as an instructional designer. Yeah, it's really cool stuff. Let's see what question we want to ask now. I know we've kind of skirted around a lot of these questions that I had. We've kind of answered most of them. I really do want to give 10, five minutes for q and a, but I also want you to tell us a little bit about what does the future hold for Skip? Are there any things up and coming that you want to share with the audience about what you're doing and where they can find you and all those things? I already put your link in the chat and I'm going to market you like crazy.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:50:45):

Excellent. So the biggest thing that I'm doing is revamping my courses. So I have been doing a course, which was a combination, but I would come in and give feedback at certain points on a resume or on metrics and bullet points. And well, a, I'm sunsetting that because the platform I'm using is sunsetting itself. So there's been no choice. Well,

Holly Owens (00:51:10):

That makes the decision real easy.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:51:13):

But the other thing is that what I'm really learning is that some of this stuff we can automate a little bit and it can be much more fast, much just much more efficient of a process. And so that's where the skills analysis is coming in. And so what I'm really, really doing is saying, how can I take the skills analysis tools and the one-on-one attention that people like and combine them? So look for some new products where I'm really leveraging the skills analysis to help you understand exactly what you need to include in your resume, how you can frame it and thinking about it in terms of particular job titles and not just, these are my skills, these are the things I do, but these are the things that are best aligned for the jobs that I'm applying for. So I'm in the process of revamping that and I'll definitely be making some announcements in the next month depending on technology.

(00:52:10):

It's really hard sometimes when you're like, I know how to do this and I know how to do this, but I can't do this. And so I'm trying to find the technology that will let me put some things together. But I'm really excited about it because really hoping that it'll let me, it will make things easier for people is at the moment, if you want to learn how to tailor a job, you really have to read a lot of job descriptions and you really have to go through a lot of work of reading your resume. So this will help cut that time be a lot more specific to what your high level skills are. And

Holly Owens (00:52:44):

I

Chelsea Averitt  (00:52:44):

Think it goes back to imposter syndrome. It'll help people understand that you have so many skills and they're so relevant.

Holly Owens (00:52:52):

And the resume is just the first step.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:52:55):

It's

Holly Owens (00:52:55):

Not the only step. People put so much weight on that. And while it's super important to get you the interview,

(00:53:02):

This is a conversation for another time, come back and talk about this is interviewing for the roles and how that all plays. That all plays out. And there's a lot of things I'll say right now going on in the chat about where can you find this real world experience? How do I get this Having a lot of imposter syndrome. I would say one of the other things to do too, and where I've gotten a lot of my, through networking and talking to different people who are doing smaller projects and they're like, could you just give me feedback on this? Or could you just help me redesign this graphic? Or could you help me put together an outline of a course? That kind of stuff. Those quick little things give me insights into one skill. So I would definitely say networking and LinkedIn is my jam.

(00:53:54):

It's like my mecca for connecting with people. And I have had so many conversations and I encourage you not to feel scared to do that, to have conversations with people. And it seems like coffee chats are getting a bad rap on LinkedIn, so have little lunch and learns or whatever you want to call them and just get together and just talk to somebody about what projects they're working on and what are their goals. It's like, it's amazing how similar we become in our approach and our routines to transition roles. But it's also amazing to find out like, oh, this might be good for me to try this. And I really like that part of the networking.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:54:34):

Yes, indeed. And I think that's something ed tech companies could do a better job of. Really, there's so much product development where they're reaching out to educators for feedback and if they could actually integrate the educators into some of those processes as a thank you for participating in this, I think that it would really be beneficial for both sides because it is hard to find the people to network with. And it's intimidating as well to reach out to a stranger,

Holly Owens (00:55:06):

Especially when so many people don't answer. They're like, I can't tell you how many templates of LinkedIn in mail messages I've gotten. And people are just like, they ask for things right off the bat and I'm like, you don't know me. You need to get to know me. I want to know you. I want to develop an authentic connection. Please just don't sell me something. Please just demand an ID skill or some review for me. Please ask me about myself. Show me that you looked at my profile. I try to do that when I connect with other people and

Chelsea Averitt  (00:55:40):

Interact in the comments too, because that's

Holly Owens (00:55:42):

Something,

Chelsea Averitt  (00:55:44):

It helps the person you're interacting with because it shares with LinkedIn that it's interesting content. And it also is a way that if you're asking a good question, you can build a network in those conversations, in the question, build a conversation. And I've actually made some really nice connections with people that it just started from a little thread where we were going back and forth about an idea, and then we've created much more of a relationship. So I think that, and Facebook, you can do that on the Facebook groups too. It's interesting, A lot of industry conversations happen on Facebook, in Facebook groups, which really surprised me that LinkedIn has never, LinkedIn has taken off for public comments, but it's never taken off for private groups. So yeah, Facebook can feel a little friendlier sometimes.

Speaker 3 (00:56:35):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I agree with that too.

Holly Owens (00:56:38):

Going to find where you're comfortable, that space all. So we got about three and a half minutes left of your time. I know you and I an hour. We could

Chelsea Averitt  (00:56:46):

Talk forever.

Holly Owens (00:56:47):

We could talk forever. It went by really fast and I'm so glad we have a wonderfully engaged audience here who's asking, they're asking a lot of questions and they're making a lot of comments. Definitely. People are talking about imposter syndrome. One person, I wanted to know hers, I am not going to say this person's name, right? I have such an American Southern mix of northern accent,

Chelsea Averitt  (00:57:10):

I

Holly Owens (00:57:10):

Think it's hers in, but they're asking, and tell me if I said that wrong. I'm so sorry. Please put the linguistic and I'm happy to shift and make edits. So what difference does it make whether you are teaching or tutoring adults or children ask for pay? Is there a difference in that pay?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:57:30):

Wait, I missed you. Can you say it one more time? So

Holly Owens (00:57:32):

They're asking if there's a difference in pay between teaching or tutoring, adults or children.

Chelsea Averitt  (00:57:39):

Is

Holly Owens (00:57:39):

There a different high or lower?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:57:43):

Yeah, I think that in general, so when I was thinking about that earlier, I was really thinking about it in terms of training. And I think the difference is really comes down to a business sense. So when you're training adults, there's a corporate business purpose. So you can generally make more money with it because companies are making more money because their employees are either more efficient or they have more skills and they can do more things. Kids don't have that economic benefit. And I think that's really where the difference lies, is that when a kid learns how to do math better, it helps them in 20 years and it helps our society in 20 years. When an adult can speak a language differently, that helps them immediately because you can open up a new business market. So I think that's kind of the distinction that I would see is what is the underlying revenue? That is a very sad, sad truth, I think. But it really, I mean that is the thing is that businesses, even if they're nonprofit education, adjacent nonprofit, we are really talking about can we monetize the results that we get? And that's a real difference from education. And I think that requires us to shift our mindset into some things that we think are really valuable. If you can't monetize them, it's harder to make a business case for doing them.

Holly Owens (00:59:12):

Absolutely.

(00:59:13):

Absolutely. One of the things Michael asked is what are some ways, and this is, I don't know if this is in our wheelhouse, but maybe we can kind of figure

Chelsea Averitt  (00:59:21):

It out. That's

Holly Owens (00:59:24):

What are some ways you can tactfully request feedback while working remotely?

Chelsea Averitt  (00:59:28):

I

Holly Owens (00:59:29):

Just ask. We have things. So the 30 16 90 plan is something I'm seeing a lot, especially in the corporate space of what you're going to do and you have to check in with your supervisor. There's a lot of different plan implementations and milestones that are put into place. I would say regular one-on-one chats with your manager, your team, because feedback comes in all forms, right? It's going to come back in the form of what you're doing on your projects and how you are as a worker and as a teammate, collaborative, that kind of stuff. So I would just say ask for it and also get familiar with what types of tools your company has where you're tracking those milestones and you're tracking that information

Chelsea Averitt  (01:00:08):

About it. Yeah, I think it can feel awkward to say, how am I doing? Because that's such a broad opening ended question. But if you come at it with some really specific real specifics that around benchmarking and those metrics that Holly just mentioned, you can really say on our last project, what were some things that worked really well? What were some things that we can improve on? And so framing it in terms of really concrete steps to change, but also feedback around the product and not the people, makes people a lot more comfortable in giving that feedback.

Holly Owens (01:00:48):

So yeah, I think that's all the questions we had in the chat. We had had some really engaging, we had a really engaging audience out on the LinkedIn live space and a lot of claps and jazzy hands. It was exciting and everybody's really grateful that this has been very informative. So any last things you want to share? Any words of wisdom? People stepping into this space, looking for roles that they like? What is the, we can probably end with this. What is the first thing you need to do when you're transitioning into the role? What's the first thing you should do when you're depending on the spot just and you're transitioning into a new role? What's the first thing you need to do?

Chelsea Averitt  (01:01:28):

Have a 30, 60, 90 day plan.

Holly Owens (01:01:31):

There you go.

Chelsea Averitt  (01:01:32):

No, but I definitely think really making sure you talk to every single person who is going to be on your team or adjacent to your team in the first 30 days. Just really start building those connections. Because particularly in a remote environment, the connections are harder to develop. And just asking people really generally to tell you about what they do, what do they see, who worked in your job previously, how did they interact? What did they really value about those interactions? Get to know people and get to know the tasks and don't stress about having to really perform that whole 30, 60, 90 day. It's such a brilliant structure. It's usually at the end of 90 days, you understand our organization well enough to do something. So it's a process and you don't have to hit the ground running in a week the way we ask teachers to do or less.

Holly Owens (01:02:30):

Absolutely. And I tell people 20 minutes a day, I'm like, do not make it your full-time job looking for a job because you're going to burn out. And I'm looking up your profile right now, LinkedIn, so I can tell everybody to connect with you.

Chelsea Averitt  (01:02:44):

Oh yes, thank you.

Holly Owens (01:02:46):

But it really is difficult. If you make it your full-time role, you'll become that person who's like, I've been searching for this job for 500 years and I haven't found anything 20 minutes a day

Chelsea Averitt  (01:03:04):

And take time off. I really feel that when I take time off, just all the ideas start to come out. And I think when you take a pause, what you'll start to do is say, oh, now I see how I could have framed my experience in that way, or I forgot that I always do that. And wait, that's actually really important. So give yourself time to

Holly Owens (01:03:27):

Rest.

Chelsea Averitt  (01:03:27):

And yeah, don't make it something that overtakes your life because

Holly Owens (01:03:36):

It can really fast.

Chelsea Averitt  (01:03:37):

Burnout is real.

Holly Owens (01:03:39):

Burnout is huge in the job industry.

Chelsea Averitt  (01:03:42):

Well,

Holly Owens (01:03:43):

Chelsea, I always love talking to you. It's always a great conversation and I learn something new every time. And I know that people are so thankful that you have a site like Skip in the mindset that you have for helping educators transition into roles. And of course the salary, the 60 k plus, most of your jobs are higher than that, the salaries that I see. So that's really awesome. And I know sometimes you message me like, look at this one. So this is so awesome. It's really great. So everybody needs to connect with Chelsea on LinkedIn and go to Skip. And if you have any questions, definitely reach out to us. And this is going to, this was recorded. It's going to be made into a video. It's going to be on our YouTube page, and it's also going to be made in audio episode. So it's going to go back, watch, listen, learn some more, put it on repeat, and share all the things with your friends.

Chelsea Averitt  (01:04:38):

So yes, thank you so much for having me. I always enjoy our conversations and our future conversations. The ones, the ones we're going to be having.

Holly Owens (01:04:45):

So absolutely. That's coming. Yes.