146: Creating a Proactive Culture of Accessibility with Nicole L'Etoile, Founder LEtoile Education

Holly Owens (00:01.204)
Hello everyone and welcome to another amazing episode of EdUpL&D. My name is Holly Owens.

DaNadia Johnson (00:08.822)
And my name is Nadia Johnson and we're your hosts.

Holly Owens (00:12.942)
And we are super excited today because we have a very special guest. have Nicole Latual, who is the founder, president, CEO, all the things of Latual Education. Nicole, welcome to the

Nicole LEtoile (00:26.65)
Thank you. I am really excited to be here as you saw when I jumped on the call and said, hello, I'm here. I'm really excited to speak to both of you and just, it's been great because we're going to have this one -on -one time. We've just had some LinkedIn posting. So thanks for having

Holly Owens (00:32.072)
Yeah.

DaNadia Johnson (00:32.174)
Yeah.

Holly Owens (00:40.97)
Yeah, yes. Thank you for joining us. We're really excited to talk to you too and getting to some things about accessibility, learning management systems. But before we jump into all that, we definitely want to learn more about you. Like tell us about your path. How did you get here? Owning your own company? You you've done a couple different other things. So tell us about your journey.

Nicole LEtoile (01:02.702)
Yeah, thanks, Holly. And I resonated with your post recently, how you started to talk about how we jump around a little bit in our careers. So I thought that was relevant. you kind of prepare for, if I was going to tell my story, I keep thinking about there's so many pieces to tell. And we only know our own stories and our own backgrounds. So.

I do like to start out by describing myself for anyone that is listening, can't see me, that I'm a white female, that I'm in my late 40s, that I have my reading glasses on, I have brown, blondish hair, sort of, and I'm sitting in my home office. so that's what I look like. And I went from classroom teacher to business owner. And I can share a little bit about the different roles that I've had. But

You know, I do think it's important to say that I started as a business and technology classroom teacher and I started teaching in Long Island, New York, where I'm from. And I moved to Texas, Plano, Texas for any of our Texas folks out there taught. And then I came to Rhode Island and I've been in Rhode Island since 2006, middle school business technology educator. I was in the classroom 12 years.

left the classroom right around the time Race to the Top funds were around, if you remember, 2012, 2013, 2014. It was big and there was a lot of effort and programs and initiatives. So that was an opportunity that was presented to us here in Rhode Island to leave our classrooms, be released and go coach new teachers. So there were 30 of us that were trained by the New Teacher Center out of California.

Holly Owens (02:27.882)
Yeah, I remember that stuff.

Nicole LEtoile (02:48.784)
And we had two full years of professional development where we were taught to coach and facilitate and create professional development for adults. So, which was an amazing experience. And then we go into classrooms all around the state pre -K through 12, and I would do observations and coaching and then create some professional development. So, you you open, it's almost what I say, as you open the curtain, so out of your classroom and you see what's going on and you think, oh, I can't go

I can make a bigger impact, there's more I can do. So I went on to the ministry, at that point, what do you do? You become a school principal, that's the path, right? That's what most people start to say. So I went on to be a school principal and then in 2017, I left that job, I left my principal job. That could be a whole episode on social -emotional, we could talk all that.

Holly Owens (03:28.936)
Right. Right.

Nicole LEtoile (03:45.584)
on why people leave their principal job at some point. Can you hear me?

Holly Owens (03:48.406)
Do we lose Nicole? Or is it? Got it. Yep, nobody can hear you. It might've been me. You're here. No. No, you're doing great.

Nicole LEtoile (03:53.136)
Am I here? I'm here. Am I rambling too much? Am I rambling? Do you need me? Okay, All right, feel free to jump right in and stop me. So anyway, so I went on to be a school principal and what happens is, you you do a great job and they promote you and you get more responsibility and before you know it, you are working 80 hour weeks, getting a

DaNadia Johnson (03:59.916)
No.

Nicole LEtoile (04:22.048)
and you're burnt, you're burnt. Burnout. Keyword. You know, and I think we're seeing that trend right now, right? We're seeing a lot of the transitioning educators are burnt and COVID was the catalyst. And I always was an early, early adapter. I burnt pre -COVID and then, you know, it was like, I just was, you did too, yeah? Yeah. So.

Holly Owens (04:23.584)
Yeah, I was like, say burnout sounds like keyword here.

DaNadia Johnson (04:41.516)
Me too.

Holly Owens (04:44.362)
Me too, yeah.

DaNadia Johnson (04:44.94)
Yes, absolutely.

Nicole LEtoile (04:49.36)
So same, so similar stories to what most people go through. And I think for me, the opening was that I had the training in professional development. I had the training to coach, so that opened up consulting and professional development work. And I've always stayed in education. think, I I can't say that I haven't explored outside of education or been frustrated at times, but I continue to come back over and over to the roots and that

I'm staying here. I'm just going to find new ways to do learning and development, instructional design, learning management system work, but I'm going to stay in education. So that's my very long road to how I got here. Yeah.

Holly Owens (05:30.902)
That's awesome. That's a great road. you know, yeah, we do dabble outside of it. Like I'm working in corporate right now, but I've always taught in higher education. I've never left education and we have a connection. I lived on Long Island from 2017 to about COVID and I lived out of East near the Pine Barrens. So.

Nicole LEtoile (05:53.473)
yes, yes. So yeah, we could do a whole episode on what does it feel like to live on Long Island, New York.

Holly Owens (05:57.494)
It's different for sure. I'm a native Marylander, so living on an island was like, and being around all that.

Nicole LEtoile (06:09.826)
Yeah, so one island to another for me. Long Island, Rhode Island, it's all the same. Yeah.

Holly Owens (06:13.311)
Yep.

Yeah, well, that's cool that we have that connection. And I love it. You know, like the path of teachers is like you said, it's like teacher in the classroom. Maybe you become a lead teacher or department chair at some point, but then your like administration is the path that they push you towards when it comes to, you know, if you want to make more money, but you're also going to be, like you said, working longer hours and getting more

Nicole LEtoile (06:40.334)
Yeah. And then, you know, some people are really great about lasting through that to get to that district role, which is where, you know, you can get to do curriculum and development. You can do more of that work. And it's kind of like, well, there's an expectation you're going to pay your dues and you're going to be a school leader for a while. I don't think if I didn't have that new teacher center training that I wouldn't have, I almost gave me another entry point that I would not have had. And so like, actually, when I talk to teachers right now who want to transition,

I always, you know, I ask, there anything right now that you can do within your school, your district, that you can kind of get that experience, right? Adult learning, practice PD too, because that was an entry point that opened up a role. And so I was a professional development director for the Rhode Island Association of School Principals, which is the, you know, the state organization. And for four years, I was able to do a lot of learning and development for that organization.

Holly Owens (07:21.011)
Mm

Nicole LEtoile (07:39.002)
Yeah, yeah. So it's been interesting. Learning management systems, it's been kind of this process that I've just dived into. Like most people, you find what you enjoy and what you love. And I tend to love it. I don't know, that sounds really nerdy.

Holly Owens (08:01.285)
No, you are nerdy and you were already on the nerdiest podcasts on the East Coast. So Luke's podcast. So we got you got that covered already.

Nicole LEtoile (08:08.23)
Yeah.

Cool, yeah, love it, love that.

Holly Owens (08:15.072)
So also too, you talk about learning management systems and I love talking in LMS, education or corporate or otherwise, but one of the things that you're really becoming seen as an expert in, an are expert in is accessibility. So one of the things like a challenge for me, and I don't know if this is a challenge for Nadia at her organization and across the board, is accessibility in a proactive, I assume.

DaNadia Johnson (08:37.964)
Yes it is.

DaNadia Johnson (08:41.772)
It is. Yeah, we're dipping our toe.

Holly Owens (08:44.316)
is creating this proactive culture of it. Yes, we're definitely just dipping the toe as well. This proactive culture of accessibility. So thinking about like, you know, how would you define what accessibility is? And then how do organizations, whether that's an education or corporate, how do they really get to the point where they're, instead of reacting to certain things, they are putting processes and standards in place, which already exists.

to make sure that we're fulfilling the needs of the laws and regulations that are already out

Nicole LEtoile (09:22.414)
Yes. So one, as you just mentioned, there are standards, there are guidelines around accessibility that we're paying closer attention to. There's definitely more of exposure to what these standards entail. And I think there's the scratching of the surface of the basic things that we can do to make our courses accessible in terms of basic things like let's do color contrast,

use headings, let's use alt text, right? And what I found, and I think I recently said this, you know, so to not be repetitive, but when, as a learning management system administrator, when I was on the receiving end, if you brought a course that you worked on for three months and you put all this effort into and creativity into, and then have it to fall on someone's lap and say, well, I'm now going to do all these checks. I'm going to, I'm going to audit.

I'm going to run, so I'll use tools to run that, WAVE tool, accessibility checker tool and different, I have other ones that I use, but I tend to lean on that one. And then kind of come back and say, well, here's some ways to fix this, here's some ways to make this better. Those are really hard conversations and it's really hard to give that feedback. So if we were to take those standards and take the training and develop,

learning around those, you know, not just what the standard is, but if I can provide you a demonstration, if I can provide you some exemplars and examples, then when you start designing, you'll have that to work with. on a... Yes. Yes. You know, in large scale for a learning management system, one way to do that is to create templates. So you create the templates that have the accessibility

Holly Owens (11:02.358)
Yeah, instead of going back retroactively and trying to fix everything.

Nicole LEtoile (11:17.068)
in place, so people are now building within the template. And it then comes down to some things that, of course, they have to do if they add a video, if they add an image. But I can design you a template that's going to meet the bigger standards for the LMS page, for the learning management page. And then we can go down and we can narrow it in. And then on a smaller scale, if you're creating

DaNadia Johnson (11:18.498)
Mmm.

Nicole LEtoile (11:45.668)
Slides, you're putting additional content in, are we actually, is that PDF accessible? So we have tools like Vengage now that I'm using to create PDFs with tag order. So it's showing those, demoing those little steps and demoing those tools, providing the training and the feedback. I reviewed a course today and because we put the training upfront, I probably spent

a third of what I would normally do, fixing, and a third of what I would normally see for correction because we built it into the training.

Holly Owens (12:24.808)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. And I just love telling people about the, like the simple, I started with the simple things to get the buy -in from them, the things that they can do all the time that really doesn't take that much time to incorporate. like, know, the simple things like with captioning and with the color contrast checker, that's a constant for me. I still see yellows and reds and all the, like,

DaNadia Johnson (12:50.251)
Yeah.

Holly Owens (12:50.312)
alarm bells go off in your head when you see those sorts of things now for accessibility, like reviewing e -learnings. But yeah, just start off with the simple things and then dive into like what you said, like the templates, include those things in there so that people don't have to think about

Nicole LEtoile (12:52.439)
See

Nicole LEtoile (13:06.5)
Mm -hmm. Yeah,

DaNadia Johnson (13:06.508)
Yeah, I love that idea.

Nicole LEtoile (13:10.734)
Yeah, it's helpful. As people do those little things, like you said, the buy -in, then you can add another layer without adding all of it all at once, the frustration of being told everything has to be fixed or remediated. So if I can train the basics, when I get a course or give feedback, I can give higher level feedback, because I can focus in on something that's a little more

complicated because I've already front loaded all the easier, like the lower task related ones. And I say easier because they're pretty low effort to check your color contrast and to update that. Yeah. So it's a matter of kind of that lower effort. And then you can start to go on the higher complicated. And something that's complicated.

Holly Owens (13:52.592)
And technology will do it for you most of these things nowadays.

Nicole LEtoile (14:05.668)
that doesn't sound complicated that I see a lot of times are headings on a page for folks that want to be able to skim with their screen reader and read the key headings without having to decide where they want to or what, know, they want to read every word for word. They want to be able to skim it. I mean, even I want to skim it, right? Like most people want to skim and look at your heading. So there's some things like

Holly Owens (14:10.09)
Mm -hmm.

DaNadia Johnson (14:26.829)
Right.

Holly Owens (14:33.076)
Yeah, I know I'm one of those people who even turns on the captioning when I watch TV and I don't need the captioning, but I turn on the cab, you know, and it's loud and the family's around like, I'd read it. don't know why I just, I just absorb it better. It's weird. It's, it's interesting to me, but that's accessibility.

DaNadia Johnson (14:38.626)
Me too sometimes.

Nicole LEtoile (14:54.488)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's making it in various ways. So for another example is a lot of times in learning management systems, have built in microphones and built in camera icons so that people can record, write and embed it. A lot of times those, if you do audio, you don't have the transcript included. And if you do the camera, you don't have closed captions.

I'll train on how to, know, simple things like that has to then go into YouTube and then, and I say simple because it's simple to me, but I have to take that and put it into YouTube and then take the embed code and bring it in. If you're going to use the audio feature tool in the learning management system, a trick, you probably do this too. Like I'll go to my Google docs, I'll turn on voice memo and let it listen. So it will transcribe for me. Right. So if I go in and I record

and I just, need to create a transcript, I let my voice memo typer create the transcript and then I can go right in. So little tricks like that, training people, yeah. Yeah, could keep nerding out on this. We could keep talking about all the fun things. Is there anything particular you think that would be helpful to people to know more about?

Holly Owens (16:01.142)
Cool.

Holly Owens (16:17.662)
Yeah, Nadia has a good question.

DaNadia Johnson (16:18.144)
Yeah, think, yeah, because I think there's a lot of, I know that there's a lot of businesses and organizations who are now just kind of like taking accessibility more serious. Like they're starting to really do their research or find vendors that can embed that and that have that knowledge. And so I'm wondering what are some common misconceptions about accessibility?

that you encounter or that you've heard that may help people to kind of better understand accessibility and what it does for learners.

Nicole LEtoile (16:52.009)
That's a really, really good question.

Holly Owens (16:56.157)
I love that question.

DaNadia Johnson (16:56.363)
hahaha

Nicole LEtoile (16:57.484)
It's a great question. Yeah, so.

DaNadia Johnson (17:03.82)
It's okay if you're a processor, because I am too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole LEtoile (17:04.194)
I was recently, you see the process, you see the thinking, the thinking and the reflecting?

Holly Owens (17:09.268)
Yeah, take your time. This is totally conversational.

Nicole LEtoile (17:12.662)
Yeah. So I, and I'm visualizing, someone that I follow and I, I'm really bad with names and I can picture their, their face and I could picture what they look like on LinkedIn. recently posted about, we think those who have hearing impairments just need closed captioning and that's enough. Did you, if you caught this, it was really good.

Holly Owens (17:36.543)
Mm -hmm.

I don't, yes, I don't remember the name either.

Nicole LEtoile (17:42.202)
And

And it had me, like it just had me go, you know, this is really interesting and important to be reflecting on and thinking about like how I can use that and now help other people see beyond that. it was, yeah, I think sometimes it's not, if I put closed caption in the video, it doesn't mean that I've met accessibility, right? If I add alt text to an image, it doesn't mean

It's all accessible. So the checklist and the guidelines, I think, help us to pay attention. They help us to technically design. But I don't know if we're not fully thinking about what is it like to have the, be on the other receiving end of the learner and having a barrier of any kind of barrier. so what I've been trying to think about is if I can create a learning experience that any learner

can never has to feel a barrier, never has to feel any, they don't have access to any kind of, I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to process this. You know what I mean? if.

Holly Owens (18:55.446)
It it flows.

DaNadia Johnson (18:57.378)
No, yes. I totally see where you're going, yeah.

Holly Owens (19:01.672)
Yes, it's like me too. And I'm right there with you like on that train. When you hit a barrier in the learning, like even with technology, if something's not working, it completely turns the learner off. So if you have some sort of disability, whether that's physical or, you know, not physical, like you hit that barrier, like I'm just not doing this. I do this all the

Nicole LEtoile (19:17.775)
Right.

Holly Owens (19:29.78)
And I know other people do it all the time. just like it completely you like shut down. It's like it's not going to happen. And just eliminating those things and where you feel like you are a part of the learning experience and like you're immersed in it in the way where you don't feel like you're learning something, but you

Nicole LEtoile (19:48.206)
Yes, there it is, that's it. And having a conversation with a designer today, and we were trying to come up with, she wanted a final summary, summative assessment, right? So it's a self -paced course, and she's like, I really want some type of summative, I want them to be able to submit something.

DaNadia Johnson (19:50.466)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole LEtoile (20:09.102)
And I'm like, are you going to grade it? Not great. So we had that conversation. so, no, I don't want to grade it, but I would love some summative. And we were like, okay, let's, let's, what if you create an assignment, this is in Moodle. And in that assignment, you asked them to respond with a video. They have to video record themselves doing the thing, is it for math fractions, the math, right? So it's PD on math fractions. And I'm like, and they have to create a lesson and then they're going to have to put it in it. And we were both like, that's a great idea. So we were both like, this is wonderful. And then like five seconds later, we're both

But what if they're not good with tech? right. Like we don't want to create the barrier for that person to not submit their final reflection if they don't feel comfortable recording a video. yeah. So I just, you gave me the big picture and I think I can technically now think of the barrier that would do that for learners. the flow, yeah.

Holly Owens (20:55.306)
Mm -hmm.

DaNadia Johnson (20:57.218)
like looking at it that way. Yeah. I like looking at it that way. It's like, look at your learner or your learning and think of the barriers that may happen with your learner. So I really, think that's a good way to look at accessibility, especially if you're still, like I said, a lot of businesses, companies are like, you know, dipping their big toe in this idea. So I think that's a really awesome way to look at it.

Nicole LEtoile (21:26.158)
Yeah, and back to your question around misconceptions too. So this is more of an opportunity as well, right? So there's the misconception, okay, there's guidelines. We have new laws and requirements that by certain year, by certain time, all of your online content needs to be accessible. You need to meet the WCAG standards. But in the process of that, I think what we're trying to say is that we could create a deeper learning.

experience or flow state for learners through these doors that we're going to walk through. We're going to start with those basics, but then we're going to open up to these other conversations and opportunities to explore that it goes beyond the closed captions. It's going to go beyond alt text. It's going to be good for all. It's going to be great for everyone.

DaNadia Johnson (21:58.958)
through this.

Holly Owens (22:01.632)
Mm -hmm.

Nicole LEtoile (22:23.236)
Great question. Really, really good question.

Holly Owens (22:26.346)
Yeah, I really like that one. That generated a lot of buzz in our brains. So one of the things I think a lot of our listeners ask us is, and especially when it comes to accessibility and learning management systems and just different technologies, is like, what are some of the best resources to consult? If you're just learning, starting to get into accessibility, or if you're into accessibility,

Nicole LEtoile (22:30.274)
It did.

DaNadia Johnson (22:30.727)
Right.

Holly Owens (22:53.396)
You know, you want to be a little bit more advanced in your knowledge and the capabilities of things that you can do. So what are some of your favorite resources or places to

DaNadia Johnson (23:02.19)
That's a good question.

Nicole LEtoile (23:02.46)
Hmm. I always, yeah, and I always give the shout out to WebAIM. And the reason I do that is because in my role as the LMS administrator, we consulted with WebAIM. So I always give credit there. I went through some training and I had a lot of stuff and we had a gentleman come in person full day and spent full day with us. And then I had a lot of one -on -one time with him.

Holly Owens (23:17.664)
They have a lot of stuff, yeah.

Nicole LEtoile (23:28.228)
to be able to learn. And so not everyone has the ability to have somebody kind of teaching and training them to do that. So if I was to now kind of knowing what I know or having that training of how to perform an audit and how to use the tools to audit for accessibility, think there's the resources to go through the WebAIM articles, but I would seek out the people

who are on LinkedIn, the top voices that are sharing beyond, kind of sharing beyond the basics. And they're sharing more of kind of back to the question, know, again, it's the buzz of like that it goes beyond that. I really wish I had some names for everyone to kind of go look and that's partially poor preparation for me, but.

Holly Owens (24:27.126)
That's okay, they're out there on LinkedIn world and I see them too and I I search accessibility hashtag and everything will pop up in regards to that. I think one person that does it really well, if I'm pulling up LinkedIn, and her first name's Karen and she does a lot about neurodivergence. my gosh, what's Karen? I've talked to Karen and I don't know her. Karen costs.

Nicole LEtoile (24:27.32)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole LEtoile (24:47.3)
Mm -hmm.

DaNadia Johnson (24:48.162)
Mm -hmm.

Nicole LEtoile (24:51.8)
Names, they're so bad. I'm fish, I'm fish -ual.

DaNadia Johnson (24:53.548)
Hahaha

Holly Owens (24:55.388)
Yeah, Karen Costa is a great one for some neurodivergent, success ability type situations. And she's, she's definitely done a lot of work around that. So that would be somebody to follow for sure. And also trauma informed teaching.

Nicole LEtoile (25:11.458)
Yes. Yeah. think, yeah. Yeah. I think when it comes to, so I tend to go into what I call like these learning caves where I'll, be trained on how to do it. And then I'll get so hyper -focused on the actual technical parts. So I am always like, well, if I can figure out how to use this particular tool,

DaNadia Johnson (25:11.552)
Yes, I want to get into that for

Nicole LEtoile (25:38.286)
to understand accessibility like a wave tool or another one's called the Arc Toolkit, which I love, and Andy, A -N -D -I. And when you pull those up, I'm visual and because I need to see what needs to be fixed or remediated, I use those tools to then teach myself. Like I'll go in and I'll pull up, know, I'm actually gonna be doing, I'm presenting.

on this exact topic that I'm talking about as well. And we could share that at the TLDC conference at the end of July. I'm going to... Yes. So I'm doing a session on how to audit and how to use these tools. once you... Because what happens is I... It's like, once you open up one of those tools, you are exposed to so many things on a live course or a live

Holly Owens (26:12.598)
All right, Luis, yeah.

Nicole LEtoile (26:34.244)
that you can have a visual and a demonstration of that you wouldn't get just from reading somebody's post or you wouldn't get from reading an article maybe, or you wouldn't get from reading a resource on WebAIM. And so what happens is you open up that tool and you start looking at, well, it's saying that this needs to be remediated, why? And then you end up going down the rabbit hole and you can see the examples and you can see how to fix it. So, yeah.

That's how I approached it. It doesn't mean it's the right way to approach it, but that's how it becomes more embedded into the everyday practice.

Holly Owens (27:14.184)
Yeah, for sure. like, just one of the things we did on our team is we put in like a, we have a checklist and I'm the accessibility person. so when I go in and review stuff for people, that's one of the first things I prioritize is the accessibility piece, along with offering constructive feedback on how they can make improvements. And I, we all use that checklist and it's based off of things like WCAG is based off all

some of the resources that you mentioned, we've incorporated in there like the contrast checker, because we use a lot of different graphics and stuff. So everybody does it differently, but you're still getting to them same result, right? Like you're checking for accessibility, you're being cognizant of and you're being proactive.

Nicole LEtoile (27:56.068)
Yeah, yeah, it's certainly helpful to be looking at the checklist to start, because it does open up the door to explore something deeper. I still look at Katie Novak's UDL work, if I need to go back and a reminder of the different kinds of barriers, what are the barriers and why are the barriers, I'll refer to that resource time and time again. In fact,

I just had to create a module for some trainers on how to do this. And I went back and pulled one of Luke's old podcasts with Katie and I put it in the core. I think there's so much out there. My advice would be get good at one thing to

You know what mean? And apply it and practice it over and over and over again, so that it just becomes part of your practice. And if it's headings, Accessibility Ally in ChatGPT, I put content in there and I say, give me back proper heading. And if that's the one thing that I focus on for that course and get it right, check. Like, that's great. Next time I'm going to get this better and this is going to get better. So if you can go deeper with one.

Holly Owens (28:54.335)
Yep.

Nicole LEtoile (29:17.352)
I think that it just becomes part of your work and it's second nature, right? You just do

DaNadia Johnson (29:24.556)
Yeah, I love that advice. That was going to kind of be my closing question. Like what advice would you give to people who want to know more about accessibility? And I definitely want to. So I will actually take that piece of advice. But we're coming up on the end of the episode. It was a pleasure, Nicole, to have this chat and talk with you. Is there anything else that you want to share with the audience? Any other?

Insights, if not, then it was a pleasure having you here.

Nicole LEtoile (30:00.476)
yeah, I don't know if I have any insights. mean, I can, I would just share that. I, you know, that if you are looking for some help and some support to get started, that, just, just take that first step, you know, commit to it, whether it's a small course, whether it's,

reaching out, there's an accessibility book club right now that's floating around on LinkedIn. Like you could even just join a book club and start talking with people about it if you're just not ready to show about, if you wanna explore it, that's another great option. So pick one thing, find it, and put in some effort. And that would be kind of what I would share at the end. I said I'm offering a session coming up at the end of July.

So you could also take that session. running a course in the fall that's gonna dive into from the very start. You have an idea, you have a course, maybe you haven't created one yet and you're starting out. That course is in Brightspace to start. then they could also, we'll also be doing some auditing, some checking and things like that. So yeah, so I would offer up those resources.

As you see, like just from this conversation, like I I get very technical in my thinking. And I really like to push the learning and I like to push people and myself. And so if that's something that you're interested in, you're like, okay, I really want to tackle this and let's do it together. think that having a good thought partner and having people that want to try everything and is a good place to start to creating little communities and.

Create your own little community to practice and have each other look at the

Holly Owens (31:53.576)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I love that, that the feedback loop and everything you said here, like we could definitely dive deeper into some of these topics. This is just skimming the surface of like accessibility and doing different things. And we will definitely share in the show notes everywhere. Nicole is going to be presenting and you know, access to all the different things that she is putting out in the world. And you definitely need to follow her on LinkedIn because she's posting a lot of great content out there as well.

DaNadia Johnson (31:53.877)
Yeah, I love

Holly Owens (32:23.062)
So Nicole, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate your time and coming and talking with us, mostly about accessibility, some about LMS, but we appreciate your time and expertise.

Nicole LEtoile (32:33.336)
Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate you making an effort to continue to spread the word around accessibility. Yeah, can't do it alone. So thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Holly Owens (32:44.598)
Thank you.